Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !

[Omnibus]

Thanks a lot, @mscoffman, interesting document, indeed.

[vrand]

@Omnibus;

Try the link:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf

Chapter 3.8 - Emissions

This document also explains some of the things that need to be done
in a hydrogen ICE conversion.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Thank you Mark, an interesting read!

3.5 Ignition Systems
Due  to hydrogen’s  low ignition energy limit, igniting hydro-
gen is easy and gasoline ignition systems can  be  used.  At
very lean air/fuel ratios (130:1 to 180:1) the flame velocity is
reduced considerably and the use of a dual spark plug sys-
tem is preferred

Maybe they got the air to HHO gas mixture just right at very high lean ratios and did not need more than 6 LPM of the HHO to run & power the loads?

They did say that they had to adjust the air intake (did not say how).

The Anton cell close plate spacing (?mm) will have less electrical resistance, more efficient HHO gas production, and less heat generated, compared to other "dry cell" designs out in the market place with wider cell spacings.  At 2.5 Wh/L is very good although Woodpeckers design got down to 1.33 Wh/L when he used 1 mm spacing.

How tu build a drycell electrolyzer English vers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DJDKYXmIWM

Some questions:
- Why only 3% KOH?  The more KOH the less electrical input to generate the same amount of HHO.
- Why 3 Anton cell units at 7 plates each vs just making just 1 large 21 plate unit?  Might be able to lower the cell cost.
- Are the plates sanded, to increase gas output by allowing the gas bubbles more easily to remove from the plate surface?

Looking forward to their next video!   

Regards, Mike R.

[pese]

@Omnibus;

Try the link:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf

Chapter 3.8 - Emissions

This document also explains some of the things that need to be done
in a hydrogen ICE conversion.

:S:MarkSCoffman

I remeber for "ICE" as combusing exlosiv part in enginge,
following that i  found 5 years ago, an i have "saved" for myself.

eventually you can find a solution for your research now:

------------------------------------------------------

Even Dingle's cell doesn't seem particularly advanced. Here is a different perspective, and it is based on both theory and experimental evidence, but I am not yet to the stage of trying it on an actual auto engine.

Auch Dingle der Zelle scheint nicht besonders weit fortgeschritten. Hier ist eine andere Perspektive, und es ist auf Theorie und experimentelle Beweise gestützt, aber ich bin noch nicht auf die Bühne zu versuchen, sie auf einer tatsächlichen Auto-Motor.

My best guess on how an engine is able to sustain operation on water-fuel does NOT depend on electrolysis - I see electrolysis itself as only supplying a small fraction (~20 % or less) of the required energy - the rest comes from (don't laugh yet) ice explosion - that's right, very small particles of ice that are formed by phase-change in a partial vacuum (.5 bar) and then immediately entrained into the intake manifold and exploded. The main purpose of the modified electrolysis cell is to supply the hydrogen and other chemical intermediaries needed to create *extremely fast* flame spread, in order to quickly raise a compressed mixture of air, solid ice particulates and fuel above the instability range.

Meine beste Schätzung, wie ein Motor ist in der Lage, den Betrieb auf dem Wasser aufrecht-Kraftstoff nicht auf die Elektrolyse ab - ich sehe Elektrolyse selbst versorgen, da nur ein kleiner Teil (~ 20% oder weniger) der benötigten Energie - der Rest kommt von "nicht - Lachen " ) einer Eis Explosion - das ist richtig, explodierte sehr kleinen Partikeln aus Eis, die von Phase gebildet werden, Veränderung in einer Unterdruck (.5 bar) und dann sofort in das Saugrohr und mitgerissen. Der Hauptzweck des modifizierten Elektrolyse Zelle wird mit dem Wasserstoff und anderen chemischen Vermittler erforderlich, um * * extrem schnelle Ausbreitung von Feuer zu Lieferengpässen kommen, um schnell zu erhöhen, um eine komprimierte Gemisch aus Luft, Partikel festes Eis und Kraftstoff über die Instabilität Bereich.



That's right, ice has an instability range and if you overcome that barrier, ice will violently sublimate and explode with a force of perhaps 30,000 psi. (2300bar)
Das ist richtig, hat Eis eine Instabilität Bereich und wenn Sie diese Barriere zu überwinden, wird heftig Eis zu sublimieren, und explodieren mit einer Kraft von etwa 30.000 psi. (2300bar)
Here is a more detailed explanation of this hypothesis: *Explosive Ice Instability and Water-Fuel* Getting small ice crystals to explode violently is not well-known, nor an easy thing to accomplish, and there is only one (Russian) study on the internet that is relevant to this process: "Explosive Ice Instability," EG Fateev
http://alt-nrg.de/pppp/432.pdf
The chart on the second page shows a critical point for Explosive Ice Instability at T ~ 225 K and P ~ 0.03 GPa.
Hier ist eine genauere Erklärung für diese Hypothese: * Explosive Ice Instabilität und Wasser-Fuel * Anreise kleinen Eiskristallen zu explodieren heftig ist nicht bekannt, noch eine einfache Sache zu leisten, und es gibt nur ein (Russisch) Studie über die Internet, um diesen Prozess relevant ist: "Explosive Ice Instabilität," EG Fateev
http://alt-nrg.de/pppp/432.pdf Die Tabelle auf der zweiten Seite zeigt ein kritischer Punkt für Explosive Ice Instabilität bei T ~ 225 K und P ~ 0,03 GPa.


Gustav Pese

[Omnibus]

Concentration of the electrolyte and its nature plays a more complex role in the kinteics of the evolution of both gases so 3% KOH may be an optimal concentration. That doesn't bother me. I can't see, however, based on the standard understanding, how overunity can be achieved under these conditions. There must be something either hitherto unknown happening or what we're seeing, shown by the German colleagues, is just some kind of an experimental error. As seen from the text @mscoffman provided, operating a standard ICE fueled by a hydrogen-air mixture poses complex technical challenges adding to the inefficiency. Therefore, if there's an OU effect due to the electrolysis it has to be so substantial that it would be possible to detect easily even prior to feeding an ICE with its products and getting into even more technical problems.

Aside from the electrolysis, I don't see how the burning of the fuel in the ICE would contribute to an eventual OU effect either, let alone that if there is such it probably would have already been detected when hydrogen as fuel is supplied from sources other than electrolysis. That doesn't seem to be the case.

It would have been easier to study the electrochemical side first and see if there are promises for OU. However, now that the system with the ICE is available the brute force approach to solving this conundrum, by demonstrating in reproducible manner that the system is self-sustaining, is a viable option to definitively conclude that this is anything but trivial. Thus, I, as @vrand, am looking forward to their next video.

[Omnibus]

@pese,

That's a really exotic hypothesis. To induce pressure, however, one has to do work (in our case at the expense of burning hydrogen). Where's the evidence that ice explosion will not only compensate for the work done but will also add excess energy?