Rosemary Ainslie COP>17 Circuit / A First Application on a Hot Water Cylinder

[Bubba1]

I don't get your point.  Why can't the electrons be flowing through the battery like they flow through a light bulb filament?

[Rosemary Ainslie]

I don't get your point.  Why can't the electrons be flowing through the battery like they flow through a light bulb filament?

Hi again.  Simply because if the battery mix were assailed with a supply of electrons it would interfere with the electrolytic process which is required to exactly account for ALL the transactions associated with that process.

The concept of electron current flow is partially supported with the the AC supply source as there's the general impression given that what comes out then goes back. 

The only reasonable explanation for electron current flow is the displacement of valence electrons in the outer energy levels of atoms.  This is indeed feasible and acceptable.  However, the rate of that displacement is so slow that one would have to wait between 10 minutes to an hour for the current to then reach the lights dispersed around the average household.  Effectively you switch on.  Then wait.  And over a long period of time you will see the one light turn on and then the other and then the other - as the current reaches those lights.

It is theoretically flawed to assume electron current flow.  It is merely a 'convention' or 'concept' used by electrical engineers and very efficiently used, I might add.  Quantum electromagnetic dynamics is the most efficient and progressive of all branches of physics.  Yet it is profoundly and fundamentally flawed where it is based on the concept of electron current flow.

I, today, had a conversation with academic engineers and there is - in fact - a consensus that the use of the 'electron' current flow is a convention rather than a correct interpretation of the fact.  But it's the first time I've had this admission.

Purists among theoretical physicists refer to 'charge' as they are well aware of the impossibility of electrons forming the basis of current flow. Electrons are negatively charged.  They can no more share a path than can two north poles of a permanent magnet share a path.  The Laws of Charge require two like charged particles to move away from each other at an angle of 180 degrees.  How then can two like charged electrons move together?

[fritznien]

lets see electrons in a vacuum tube, cathod ray tube, X-ray tube......
electricity is the flow of electric charge, electrons protons or ions.
in a wire its electrons in a batterry its ions.
to discharge a batterry undergoes chemical reactions that move positive ions to one electrode and negative to the other.
to charge a voltage is applied which moves charge in the opposite direction and reverses the process.
all this is only 200 years old.
google it electrons have been measured for charge mass and size for many decades.
fritznien

[Rosemary Ainslie]

lets see electrons in a vacuum tube, cathod ray tube, X-ray tube......

Hello  fritznien.  Electrons can indeed be dispersed as you mention here.  But this has nothing to do with the flow of current.  We're talking the actual transfer of energy through a circuit for purposes of work at a load.

electricity is the flow of electric charge, electrons protons or ions. in a wire its electrons in a batterry its ions.
to discharge a batterry undergoes chemical reactions that move positive ions to one electrode and negative to the other.

If you could generate current flow with protons then you will indeed have performed a miracle.  You would need to strip your inductive atoms down to a level that has not be managed under any process devised thus far.  No-one, not even those more adventurous electrical engineers has ever proposed that ions can be the material of current flow.  And electrons simply cannot share a path - not under any circumstances at all.  They can be energised to disperse and that dispersion has uses.  But they simply cannot 'share' any path, anywhere at all in the sense that current flow requires this.  Current flow effectively implies the transfer of a 'field'.  Electrons cannot generate the smoothness required by a field. 

to charge a voltage is applied which moves charge in the opposite direction and reverses the process.
all this is only 200 years old.

Not even.  Farraday was only born in 1860's or thereby.  But the age of the science is certainly not proof of the science.  But you are certainly correct in referring to the current flow as a flow of charge.  I don't think anyone can argue that.

google it electrons have been measured for charge mass and size for many decades.

Again.  Not sure what argument you are using here fritznien.  The actual mass and charge of the electron is precisely what precludes it from being a canditate to generate a 'field' effect. 

Regards,
Rosemary
EDITED

[Omnibus]

Rosemary, I guess this is at the basis of your misunderstanding:

No-one, not even those more adventurous electrical engineers has ever proposed that ions can be the cause of current flow.

On the contrary. It is exactly the formation of the ions due to the negative value of the change in Gibbs free energy of the chemical reaction leading to the formation of these ions that is the very cause for the follow-up directed flow of electrons along the solid conductors connecting the anode and the cathode. While in a redox reaction taking place in the bulk of a vessel the direction of the electron flow is random, the separation of the anodic from the cathodic compartment in an electrolytic cell causes the electrons to flow in concert in a given direction which is exactly what electric current is. That's the basis of electrochemistry. I don't know what these electrical engineers are that you're talking to but that's basic stuff well recognized by anyone versed in the subject.

Also, as I said before, it is not true that:

And electrons simply cannot share a path - not under any circumstances at all.

They in fact can. There's no theoretical reason preventing them from flowing in concert and that can very easily be demonstrated experimentally. Electrons can and do share a path, despite being of the same charge, as do the like-charged cations on the one hand and the anions on the other in an electrolytic cell.

Many of us here are quite open minded, some even to the extreme, but there are limits especially when the question concerns well established experimental facts.