calling Maxwell's Daemon

[nul-points]

the DIY cells which are driving an LED Flasher circuit continue to both power the circuit and increase in charge, as they've done throughout the lifetime of the 2 cells so far

the voltage/temperature graph for the period following the additional heat input run, up to present date, is shown below

the excess electrical energy which is charging the cells, even as they power the circuit, appears to be converted from ambient heat by the electrochemical activity within the cells, since the system is completely disconnected from any other electrical equipment, it's contained in a steel case and it's located in a darkened room


i'm also now posting the voltage/temperature data for an unattached DIY cell below

there appears to be a slight temperature dependence but the unattached cell does not show a voltage-time trend which increases

this 'sidebar' test is now ended


a 'control' experiment has recently been started, using two discharged 1000mAh NiMH cells to power a similar circuit to the main experiment

it's too early yet to see long-term cell behaviour, as we can now with the main DIY cell results, but it's evident that the commercial cells also have some temperature dependence, although not as great as the DIY cell

the NiMH circuit test also showed an on-load terminal voltage trend which was increasing initially, but it appears to have peaked and may now be starting to decrease

i'll post the voltage/temperature graph for the NiMH cct test as more data becomes available

[Omnibus]

Very interesting. So, unattached cell shows the expected behavior. There is something going on when the described schematic is attached to the cell.

[nul-points]

Very interesting. So, unattached cell shows the expected behavior. There is something going on when the described schematic is attached to the cell.

yes, an external circuit is important and necessary - but we can't read too much into that wrt the present circuit, at this stage

as i mentioned earlier, a battery has an almost 'symbiotic' relationship with its external load, in terms of enabling the battery's internal ion transport processes to function

so any load at all will differentiate very strongly between the behaviour of these loaded cells - self-sustaining/charging on-load for 900 hours now since construction - and that unattached cell of the same construction and build date which, by contrast, has just decreased in terminal voltage in the same period

a key feature of this particular load is that the load cycle is asymmetric:
- there is a slow, relatively low-level discharge from the cells, followed by a sharp peaked pulse of recharge, fed back to the ballast capacitor, which gets smoothed by C1 and L1 before helping to maintain charge on the battery

cheers
sandy

[Omnibus]

This almost sounds like homeopathy. Microamps of current is practically zero current. I don't see how this can affect the ion transport such that the latter would spontaneously turn lower energy components into components of higher energy state. Related to this is the asymmetry of the load cycle -- have you actually measured these low level currents and their asymmetry or it's just a supposition based on the functionality of the schematic?

Of course, an experimental fact when it is firmly established has the priority. I find it highly significant that the unattached battery demonstrates the expected behavior unlike the attached. I think this experiment should be tested independently and if the effect is confirmed we may need to change probably some of our understanding on some fundamental level as to how the electrochemical systems really function.

[nul-points]

This almost sounds like homeopathy. Microamps of current is practically zero current.

hardly

microamps are certainly not going to turn your auto starter motor - but they are the necessary level of current to power an LCD timer on your CH boiler, drive your pacemaker, or power your PC real-time clock chip - any EE will tell you that microamps are a legitimate and useful level of current in the correct application areas

microamps will quite happily discharge any value of capacitor - it's just a matter of time

so let's not fool ourselves into thinking that 'microamps' effectively  means zero amps!


there are three major states for ANY voltage cell:

  a) externally supplied voltage is greater than inherent cell voltage
    this is the 'electrolysis' state when electrical energy is taken from the external supply and converted to 'chemical' energy within the cell

  b) cell voltage exactly = any external circuit voltage
     no energy in or out of cell - resting state of system - equilibrium

  c) cell voltage greater than that of an external circuit
     this is the regular 'galvanic' cell action - internal 'chemical' energy in the cell is converted into electrical energy due to external flow of electrons between the electrodes causing an equal flow of ions, within the cell, between the electrodes

these states are true regardless of whether the current is amps or picoamps (and, as we know, picoamps are 1000000 times smaller than microamps)


yes, i have measured the asymmetry of the load cycle - the load & buffer voltage profiles, as seen on a scope, are as i described above


this self-sustaining/charging action of cells is not unique to my DIY cells - as i mentioned above, several threads on OU.com have also described similar behaviour

this leads me to believe that we're observing something independent of these cells particular characteristics, and instead what we're seeing is a more fundamental thermo-electrochemical behaviour driven by the difference in 'work-function' of dissimilar metals (or similar metals, but in different 'concentration) driving ion transport between the electrodes with reduced electrode corrosion and with significant energy contribution being made to the usual electrochemical activity by ambient heat

my guess is that this possibility is initially most likely to be observed exactly down at the low-current area of operation

it's happening - the data shows it - voltage cells (mine & other peoples') are self-sustaining/charging with a continual electrical load

our response now should be to see if & how we can start to recreate this phenomenon further and further away from the equilibrium state of the cells

interesting times!
sandy