calling Maxwell's Daemon

[Omnibus]

I know we're splitting hairs here since the points you make are correct but there's a quantitative side in terms of chemical conversion to the flow of charges. Milliamps of current flowing correspond to negligible quantity of moles of substance being converted. And substances have to be converted into other substances in order for a battery to be recharged. In the case at hand we're practically at equillibrium and yet the battery is being charged. Indeed it would be even more amazing if energy is dissipated from the battery and yet it would still keep on charging, that is, when the battery is away from equilibrium (working as a galvanic cell) and still being charged.

As for your explanation that "what we're seeing is a more fundamental thermo-electrochemical behaviour driven by the difference in 'work-function' of dissimilar metals (or similar metals, but in different 'concentration) driving ion transport between the electrodes with reduced electrode corrosion and with significant energy contribution being made to the usual electrochemical activity by ambient heat" there needs to be a temperature gradient for that, working opposite to the way the temperature gradient normally works, correct? Otherwise, I don't see how the metal work functions will behave in the new way you're describing.

[Omnibus]

As a matter of fact, I'm observing something similar to having a galvanic cell dissipating energy and yet being chagrged but in a different context. And that has apparently been missed in the very standard theory of electricity. You may want to take a look at the data which I posted here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10177.0 . From these data it is seen that not only the output energy, when a simple RC filter is powered at certain conditions, is greater than the input power but there isn't any input power per se because all of it is returned back to the source (the input power is negative). And that is a purely theoretical analysis, independent of any experiment. In addition, experiment also shows such discrepancy. So, the excess energy in this case is due to the saving from the input. This is a violation of the first law, not of the second law. I wonder if there could be any connection with what you're observing.

[nul-points]

i understand what you're saying, Omni, but the truth is that only *exactly* at equilibrium, state b), is a cell truly at rest
[a cell's major states a), b) & c) as defined above]

the *slightest* voltage disparity (positive OR negative) between the cell and an external circuit will start the process for state a) or state c)

in fact, the definition for a reversible thermodynamic reaction is that an infinitesimal change (positive or negative) will drive the reaction out of equilibrium in the associated direction

the no. of available ions in the electrolyte at any time will limit the maximum current which can flow (for either charging or discharging)

but the charging, or discharging, current can be as low as you like (ignoring quantum effects here) - because arranging for the current to vary continuously from +ve to -ve (ie. from any starting values of discharge to charge) WILL pass through 0 Amps (=0 mA = 0 uA = 0 pA, etc)

on the way you'll have passed thro' smaller and smaller +ve currents then, after equilibrium,  increasing through tiny to larger -ve currents

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temperature gradients are required by heat pumps but not by galvanic/electrolysis action:

the Nernst equation, for half-cell reactions, combines the standard reduction potential from the Gibbs Free energy & the reaction quotient, Q, to determine the voltage driving the reaction

it relies on only one temperature:

E(volts) = Estandard - (RT/nF)lnQ

where T is an absolute temperature (ie. not a temp difference)
(R & F are constants, n is no. electrons in the half-cell equation)

=========

Interesting study you did with the RC circuit - and the experimental data backed up the theory?

i'm not discounting the possibility, but i don't see how my DIY cell's self-sustaining behaviour might map onto the 'saving from the input' mechanism you see in the RC circuit analysis

however, i'm wondering if the paper:

"Recycled Noise Rectification: A Dumb Maxwell’s Daemon" by M. Borromeo, et al
(Google for the PDF)

  might be a closer fit to your own studies?  the paper proves that it's possible to create a Maxwell's Demon by a 1D combination of delayed 'noise' (random or periodic) signal and the original signal on say, a charged Brownian particle, to cause a net current

so - is it possible that the RC circuit is providing just such a delay?  see what you think

===========

finally - the 'sidebar' experiment is back on (all bets recalled)!

for some reason, my subconscious told me to go back & check the unattached cell i'd been testing... sure enough i'd been using an earlier Zn Ni cell, not the Zn Cu cell (as used in my ongoing self-sustaining/charging DIY cell experiment

so - watch this space - more unattached cell data to follow in due course

don't expect too much difference tho' because i see that the off-load voltage is still ~0.88V, similar to its initial construction value, so it hasn't increased with time like the on-load versions in the experiment

anyhow, i'll redo a week's worth of voltage/temp measurements and report back


cheers
sandy

[exnihiloest]

...
=========

temperature gradients are required by heat pumps but not by galvanic/electrolysis action:

the Nernst equation, for half-cell reactions, combines the standard reduction potential from the Gibbs Free energy & the reaction quotient, Q, to determine the voltage driving the reaction

it relies on only one temperature:

E(volts) = Estandard - (RT/nF)lnQ

where T is an absolute temperature (ie. not a temp difference)
(R & F are constants, n is no. electrons in the half-cell equation)

=========
...

Thanks for the equation. It is a very interesting point that opens a way for a theoretical explanation of Karpen's battery, which is the object of an another thread (see http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10208.0).
The principle is: if we choose electrodes that do not react with the electrolyte, we still have a potential difference. If a current is drawn, as there is no chemical reaction, the electrical energy comes only from the environment heat, the solution cools down (then the cell polarizes and we must open the circuit before restarting a cycle later when it will have recovered its voltage).

[nul-points]

or, as i said above:

this leads me to believe that we're observing something independent of these cells particular characteristics, and instead what we're seeing is a more fundamental thermo-electrochemical behaviour driven by the difference in 'work-function' of dissimilar metals (or similar metals, but in different 'concentration) driving ion transport between the electrodes with reduced electrode corrosion and with significant energy contribution being made to the usual electrochemical activity by ambient heat
[...]
it's happening - the data shows it - voltage cells (mine & other peoples') are self-sustaining/charging with a continual electrical load