Hydro Differential pressure exchange over unity system.

[see3d]

Perhaps you could assist greatly in explaining how the forces & pressures should develop in see3d's sim so we could actually see how that energy advantage [OU] manifests into sim & real world reality by way of his force & pressure derived sim built with accuracy of formula's & logic.

@Fletcher, you are at a significant disadvantage if you have a slow internet that makes pictures difficult to download.  I show my work and think almost exclusively in pictures.  You must be a very intelligent person to be able to get as much as you have without the pictures.  Were you able to download my whole PDF with pictures?

My sim baseline level sits at the bottom with zero H0, zero air pressure (atmospheric), and H1,H2 at the same level.  The riser is counterbalanced mechanically as is the piston and water in the pod area.  The system starts out in a "relaxed" state at the bottom with only a 1% of design output load weight sinking it.  It is a very easy state to understand as a starting point for the sim.  Then a design load weight of 1 pound is applied on top of the Riser.  Then an input force is applied to the piston via a 1 pound weight applied to a mechanical lever.  Life does not get much simpler than that for something to sim and physically measure  accurately.  I am really designing it as a science experiment for the purpose of easy accurate measurements.  Making a single ZED free run takes a little more Rube Goldberg mechanical ingenuity.

@All, I would be very happy to get additional math-a-magic formulas for improving my sim.  I believe I have the water heads and air pressures right now.  I need to get the lift forces correct next. 

I may have to do my own super simple 1 layer "tin can" build to check my sim against some real world measurements -- since nobody seems to have built a 1 layer test setup.  I am keen to get the super simple 1 layer sim correct before extending it to multiple layers.  The more layers, the harder it is to physically verify all the dimensions and pressures.  A 1 layer system can literally be done with tin cans or plastic bottles or a combination of both. 

I have my own independent build interests with Wayne, but I would be happy to use my "improved" sim to provide design optimization ideas for a build here.  That was always my intent in sharing what I am doing here.

I am going to take a little more time before finishing my PDF for release again.  There is a lot of work in regenerating all the pictures and animations which are no good if done with the wrong output force calculations.  I am in search for a bit more understanding about the proper concept for this output calculation.  Perhaps in another day I can feel more confident about what I have.  I would like it to be in the ballpark before a tin can build, so I can make it able to differentiate the various forces unambiguously.

[TinselKoala]

Some info from my risers.

dry weight     sink mass
90g             270g         outside
18g             294g
21g             196g
16g             143g
12g              85g         inside
      Totals
157g            988g

the sink mass was determined by placing each riser in an open container of water and filling a cup up, that was placed on top of the riser, until the riser just broke the surface of the water.

The max lift to date that I have had, and moved, is 1204g that was with 19 3\4 inches of "head" into the pod chamber.

Thank you for sticking to grams. I assume that your scale like mine reads to the nearest gram, that's fine with me. Can you also give a volume for the risers taken from measurements of their dimensions? This will be a crosscheck on the density information contained in your present data set.

Now, if I am understanding you  correctly, you are pushing the risers into the water until they are just fully submerged, holding them down with the weighted cup, and then weighing the cup to see how much weight is needed to hold them there? Is that right? So you are getting a measurement of the upward force of a just fully submerged riser. Right?

And I think that your risers are open on the bottom, right ? So that there is air trapped inside of them, and also that the volume of this trapped air will be variable depending on the external pressure, right? Like a Cartesian diver and _not_ like a sealed and constant volume. Am I still on track?

Could you please test one thing, and see if the depth of submergence has any effect on the "sink mass"? I mean, push the riser further under the water-- try to use a deep barrel or something like that--  with a thin rod (little displacement or buoyancy of its own) and balance the weighted cup in air on top of the rod, and see if the cup needs to be heavier or lighter to "sink" the riser or hold it down at your test depth. Don't forget to include the weight of the rod and its submerged volume -- I think this should be added to the dry weight and volume of the risers.

Also... how far did the 1204 g weight move, and how far did the water head drop when the weight was at its full travel?

[TinselKoala]

I'm trying to figure out a lowfriction lightweight way to keep risers and stationary walls concentric without adding drag and of course with allowing air and water to pass freely.  I'm envisioning something like a Teflon "star" or "gear" with teeth pointing out and in, like a ring, that can slip over the inner tube and ride between it and the outer tube smoothly with loose clearance, preserving the interwall spacing and keeping everything concentric.

I know how I'd do it if I had my shop set up, but I'm looking for ideas for something cheap or free, easy to make, and adaptable to most any design that people are working with.

[Magluvin]

Hey See3d

Nice work. Does your simulation show the 'air' as compressible? Like when it is under pressure does it occupy less space, as compared to the water?

Thanks

MaGs

[see3d]

Hydrostatic paradox examples http://scubageek.com/articles/wwwparad.html - what it means is that there are no free lunches - so if I increase head height by increasing water level height by moving only a small volume so that the system center of mass [CoM] doesn't change much at all I do increase the force [i.e. pressure] on the bottom of the tank/piston face in your sim - the effect of this doesn't seem apparent until one considers a system where a piston is used - the relative pressure levels felt at every vertical level will try to force apart two objects, one of which one is moveable.

Fletcher,
Thanks for that link about the paradox.  In fact, I missed this in the currently released sim PDF.  It was the reason I had to rework the formulas.  I got caught in the paradox and tried to ratio the difference in area of H1 and H2 in the PSI calculations.  I fixed it without understanding this old paradox.  I had to rediscover it on my own through the math... LOL