Hydro Differential pressure exchange over unity system.

[TinselKoala]

That appears to me to be different than the way MrWayne has been using "precharge".  The precharge is what's in the system before a cycle starts. Then you add whatever fluid/air to make the lift. Then you sink, recovering whatever fluid/air you added. What's left is the same precharge and position that you had before you added your whatever fluid/air to make the lift.

[wildew]

Just to ask - state - and be sure.

ASK :: The test data presented last night was gathered as requested, I believe?
Water levels set to 6.5 inches - POD near zero.
Pod near zero is required in this case to allow for some air compression.

STATE :: That is one problem with this test setup; I'm not saying it's not a valid or legitimate test but there is the problem of compression.

In a well set up system the air remains in a near-steady state of compression so its volume change is reduced.
With this setup there is a greater change in volume of the low density fluid.

All of that's fine as long we understand what we're testing and what the goal of the test is.

BEING SURE :: Kind of the same as the first question ( no, really the same ) Was the test that was done and the data that was presented - what was asked for?

Dale

PS: The comment about changing 1 think at a time - meaning - doing this zero added air test with the same payload as the previous test ( I Think ). The result of trying that would have been no lift. The volume of water added would have been lower ( no under-pod-fillin ) but the POD chamber would have gone to the max height before over flowing without causing enough differential in the outer risers to provide lift.

It's a balanced system. The weights can't change, the pressures and differentials can't change, without affecting something else in the system.

Within a range though it would be, and is suggested, to slowly change just 1 thing and observe the reaction.
IE: Add or remove 1 pound from a working setup.

[Red_Sunset]

I refer to that condition as the setup.
The setup is setting the air and water relationships before starting the system.
I refer to precharge as taking the system pressure and using an external source raising it up to lift pressure.
After precharge is met more fluid and pressure are needed for lift.
I refer to lift as making the lift as well as how much weight the lift can move,, my bad.
I refer to rest as when the system has made a lift and returns back to its setup position and pressure.

A short refresher on "PreCharge"
1.. The intial partial precharge lifts the risers from the floor (float pressure)
2.. The next charge, called "Full PreCharge" takes the system to full stroke pressure (force) but NO Movement (brake is on, system taken to stroke pressure). In a full dual Zed system, this process has 2 stages, Equalization(free cost) & Hydraulic assist (paid cost)
3.. Stroke action only provides stroke displacement volume water as required for the stroke distance, the pre-charge takes care of the stroke pressure (force)

Process stages picture attached

[Red_Sunset]

Gents,
There is a big difference in how different people are defining pre-charge.  In a ZED of the sort that has been replicated here, I think of it as the initial balance.  That is, what is needed to counterbalance the fixed weight of the riser, without any payload weight.  There is more than one way to create this initial balancing setup in a ZED, but this is a needed step for high efficiency operation.  Do not attack this as being a source of stored energy that can be consumed.  It is not, and it can't be for repeated cycles.
Some others are defining pre-charge as winding up a "spring" that can be used to supplement the losses in a running ZED.  The ZED will cycle until the "spring" runs down.  This is a legitimate target of inquiry.
Some complete systems talk about a pre-charged "spring" that is a temporary source of power to phase shift the generation of force at one point in the operation to application of that force at another point later on, but the pre-charge is restored on each cycle.  This is also a legitimate target of inquiry since it has the potential to start with a "spring" wound more than required to just phase shift the force.
It can be confusing when using the same term for all of the above.  Let's be clear about which we are talking about.

I can see that Tinsel has a reasonable idea, to see and verify what the precharge impact is,  See3D suggest some good instances that the spring effect could occur and be used and replicators like wildew doing a goose chase. You can be assured of more water and energy input.
But you guys have the wrong end of the stick when it comes to spring effect.  The fact that air is present in the system and will compress and therefore act as a spring  is unavoidable but not desirable.  The same reason why we have a center POD and not a riser in the middle of the zed.  The reason for the initial precharge is to setup the piston to the float position (overcome the riser weight).
The final precharge bring the system up to full stroke force without movement (piston is stopped with brake)  At no time in this process does the spring effect has any desirable effect or purpose .
When stroke movement is started, the main purpose of the Hydraulic Assist is to maintain that stroke pressure constant to optimize the energy output for that limited distance.  At this point does the spring effect serve to smooth out the force to keep it within margin but this is not a critical side effect
During descent, the spring effect is detrimental, because it counteracts a fast descent since this spring is located between the lift surface and the water below, this would retard the descent.  The only component that promotes descent is the RiserWeight while pulling the bottom plug out, any spring effect in the system will hinder that.

I think your logic is way off track with thinking that the air spring effect is going to keep the system going, or assist in any way.  The precharge real benefit is in recycling of pressure volumes that allows for reduced volume usage at stroke time (in a dual Zed)
I am open for correction if you think different !

[fletcher]

This is somewhat off-topic but there are a lot of parallels.

Most of us have other specific areas of interest that are closer to "the norm" than free energy and there are emerging technologies all around us; some succeed, some fail....

I'm into aviation

Anyone want to debate the Moller SkyCar?

Dale

Hi Dale ..


While there is a little off-topic going on ...


In the early 90's [90/91] I had completed a commercial pilots licence & was finishing an instructor rating - at the time of gaining my licences & rating the A-Cat who had a hand in teaching me was a gentleman by the Cp Gordon Vette - he was an ex Air NZ captain - he was also the test pilot for the prototype Moller 400, flying to the states every 6 months or so for further evaluation.


I sidetracked him whenever I could to talk about the Moller skycar - I was particularly interested in the vectored thrust from the 8 engine/4 narcels that could run on any combustable fuel - Gordon always flew tethered flights [for insurance purposes] & mostly in ground effect though sometimes higher.


I asked him when they would be commercially available ? - they were computer controlled for navigation & stability so you only needed minimum training to fly them [far less than a private pilot's licence but that would be preferable] - he said, at that time, that he was convinced that the aircraft could fly to 30,000 feet & do over 300 kts IIRC - but the problem with release & commercialisation was not the mechanics or performance but the Civil Aviation Authority needs for 'electronic flight corridors' [virtual tunnel networks/corridors in the sky] that the Moller could be directed into & fly about safely etc - he said that the technology just wasn't there then to achieve a sky network that the FAA would approve - until that such time as it was & it was idiot proof & approved by FAA the Moller would never eventuate as a commercial alternative to private transport.


Gordon was to receive the 120th production model IIRC - Moller himself made his fortune out of designing & building expansion chamber exhausts for racing cars & the knock-on technology that followed but also had an aeronautics degree IINM.