PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?

[poynt99]

Laziness it is then -- but pls explain why using a standard diode at the end will not give a basis for comparisons of Pinput FOR THIS CONTEST.  (AGAIN, I'm asking you not to confuse the contest goal with the separate goal of measuring Pout and efficiency n.)

It's alright Professor; apparently I'm interfering, so I'll pass.

Good luck to all with the contest.

.99

[NickZ]

   One of the problems with this test is that the frequency will change in the devices as the batteries or charge cap drop in charge.  So their ideal running voltage and frequency sweet spot will be vary, and be lost.  Especially when using a weak 1000 uf cap. The special quality of these low microamp circuits will be overlooked. 
   Question:  if these circuits are really running on micro amps, why are they discharging their source battery or cap as quickly as they are?
   I've got 4 BwJt running every day 24/7, they all have the same trans, cap 103, and pots, and no resistors.  They all work very different since they have different coils on them.  The leds are also all different. All of them drain the battery in a day or two.  There are even difference in using the same type of transistor, etz...
   If all the test are showing that the capacitor or batteries are being discharged, and are not maintaining their original voltage, this shows that there is no real or special efficiency with this set up. Just another Jt draining its source.  What it the point???  On the other hand if you had a unit that does NOT get discharged at all, but instead charges up to a higher value (like Koolers do), that would interest me.

[nul-points]

 
thanks Steven, i reran the test from 2.55V and got the following results:

553 seconds (9min 13sec) to discharge a nominal 1000uF cap from 2.55V to 1.5V

C2 1000uF (nominal)
2.55V => 3.251mJ
1.50V => 1.125mJ
                   -------
           Ein: 2.126mJ

Pav: 2.126/553 = 3.8uW


i believe i have some 1N4148s, but i can't remember in which 'very safe' hiding place i stored them! 

before this latest 2.55V run with an LED , i tried a 1N914 in place of the LED, from 2.24V start - interestingly, it discharged approx 7 seconds faster than with the LED !  (eventually will need to run these tests several times & average, as you suggested)

will try & locate the 4148s - but not 'til next week now unfortunately

will also try with a germanium OA93 when i get a few minutes


you mentioned putting the DVM in the MWO with the DUT, which suggests that you leave the DVM in place for your measurements

i'm sure your DVM is better quality than mine - i only connect to the DUT to take 'spot' readings, so that my DVM doesn't add extra drain (or supply!)

also, i sometimes use empty biscuit tins to provide larger metal (mild steel) cases as Faraday shields for experiments  - removing any paint round outer top edge to ensure good electrical contact with lid

glad the frequency limit can come down!  will try to avoid 50Hz here 

thanks
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

[JouleSeeker]

   One of the problems with this test is that the frequency will change in the devices as the batteries or charge cap drop in charge.  So their ideal running voltage and frequency sweet spot will be vary, and be lost.  Especially when using a weak 1000 uf cap. The special quality of these low microamp circuits will be overlooked. 
   Question:  if these circuits are really running on micro amps, why are they discharging their source battery or cap as quickly as they are?
   I've got 4 BwJt running every day 24/7, they all have the same trans, cap 103, and pots, and no resistors.  They all work very different since they have different coils on them.  The leds are also all different. All of them drain the battery in a day or two.  There are even difference in using the same type of transistor, etz...
   If all the test are showing that the capacitor or batteries are being discharged, and are not maintaining their original voltage, this shows that there is no real or special efficiency with this set up. Just another Jt draining its source.  What it the point???  On the other hand if you had a unit that does NOT get discharged at all, but instead charges up to a higher value (like Koolers do), that would interest me.

Can you point me to the link to one of Kooler's devices that do "NOT get discharged at all"? 
  I'm hoping that Kooler will make an entry here.

But even so, Nick, I would not agree with you that a circuit like NP's that discharges a small 1000uF cap in 433 seconds is discharging "quickly."  That's over SEVEN MINUTES from a small cap!  and under 5 microwatts for Pin. 

I agree that conditions will change as the voltage drops from the input cap, and we might later want to limit the range of that voltage drop.  The reason I like the larger range here (approx 2.55 V down to 1.5V) is that the device may indeed go through a "sweet spot" as you say.  I would like to place one of these devices in a sensitive calorimeter, running off a cap with known Ein, and measure with the cal. the precise Eout (total Eoutput).  Do you see where I'm headed with this?   But for now, getting high evident efficiency as shown by LOW Pinput with an LED lighted is the intermediate (and first) goal, and the goal of this little contest.

I don't expect you will join the contest, but it has merit IMO in teaching us about these low-power consumption circuits and in developing ideas of how to make the circuits more efficient (LED still lit with minimal input power).  That's why I offered a small incentive, again,
$100 - ($Pinput in uW/10). 

If someone gets the prize for over $99, I will be very pleased at the progress made!

And if someone gets the device to build a charge, OU that is, then the incentive goes to $200 plus help in getting the whopper prize now standing at this forum -- nearly $20,000 -- a big carrot for further research!

To summarize the conditions for the "contest" here:

Dr. Jones' Contest Conditions:
Required is a JT-type circuit, with at least one transistor and one bifilar (or higher)-wound toroid and it must light an LED to observable brightness in a lighted room.   The final test is conducted with a 1N4148 replacing the LED, and the device placed in a microwave (OFF) or other Faraday cage to exclude ambient energy sources. (The winning device cannot be poaching from the local electrical grid; operation at 50-60Hz is excluded.)   The input power is to be measured by the capacitor/time method:
Ecap = 1/2 C V**2
so
Pinput = 1/2 C (Vstart**2 - Vstop**2)/time

Where Vstart is approx. 2.55V and Vstop is 1.5V.   
The circuit with the LOWEST Pinput wins, and the award amount is currently:
$100 - ($Pinput in uW/10).

(18 June 2011)

2.55 V for the start can be reached by beginning with two fresh AA batteries and running the device so that the cap discharges to approximately 2.55V, then pausing to take measurement of Vin the cap before proceeding with the test.   (One measures the actual value of Vstart on the cap in order to calculate Ein)

[JouleSeeker]

NP: 

553 seconds (9min 13sec) to discharge a nominal 1000uF cap from 2.55V to 1.5V

C2 1000uF (nominal)
2.55V => 3.251mJ
1.50V => 1.125mJ
                   -------
           Ein: 2.126mJ

Pav: 2.126/553 = 3.8uW

Over nine minutes on a small 1000uF cap!  phenomenal, NP.