Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect

[MileHigh]

Farmhand:

I am glad you are having fun!  I am referencing you hand-drawn schematic in posting #1391 although I am not sure this is the proper one.

Also notice the RMS current values ? What does that mean ? THe current is scoped across 0.1 Ohm resistors. So that around 900 mA RMS in MC1 and 700 mA RMS in MC2, and the circuit drawing only 400 mA from the supply.

I notice in the schematic that there is a mechanism for current to flow counter-clockwise because of the diode arrangement.

I will start off with the yellow trace.  You can see the current starts from zero and reaches a certain level before the MOSFET switches on.  That is probably due to the approaching magnet or magnets (I am assuming MC-2 may be helping here).  So the current starts flowing with a "rotor push."

I am going to assume that the MOSFET switches on at top-dead-center.  So when that happens the current continues to increase in the coil and the cap between MC-1 and MC-2 is supplying the bulk of that current.

When the MOSFET switches off, you can see a nice linear decrease in the current output by the coil.  You also notice that there is only a modest increase in the current through MC-2.  To me that suggests that most of the current is going into the cap above the battery.   You also notice that the MC-1 coil completely discharges before the cycle starts all over again.

For the blue trace for the MC-2 coil, probably the most striking thing about it is that current is always flowing through it.  Note that it has capacitors on both sides of it to both feed it with current and absorb the current.  So if anything, it looks like MC-2 has a "spongy" ride.  I think that MC-2 is "pulled" when the MOSFET switches on as well as being influenced by passing rotor magnets.

It's great that you are looking at the currents because most experimenters don't look at the currents flowing through their coils and coils are devices that are based on current flow.   I am pretty sure that many pulse motor setups have coils with current continuously flowing through the coils and the experimenters are not aware.

Here is a possible bird's eye view of what's going on in your pulse motor:  The periodic MOSFET pulsing of MC-1 pushes on the rotor and also initiates some current to flow through MC-1 and MC-2.   Once the MOSFET switches off, you still have three "power sources" to keep current circulating counter-clockwise.  1) MC-1, 2) MC-2, and 3) the passing rotor magnets.

So between pulses current keeps circulating counter-clockwise.  I don't know if that's a "good thing" or a "bad thing" relative to your design goals.  One school of thought might say that continuous current flow implies continuous resistive losses.  However, it's still possible that the continuous current flow facilitates better performance and you can live with the resistive losses.

Is it resonance?  Personally I don't see anything that looks like conventional resonance.  Keep in mind I think that the term "resonance" for a pulse motor is a vague undefined term.  I believe that many people believe that the pick-up coils are supposed to be in resonance with the passing rotor magnets but I am not sure.

My personal opinion is that some form of resonance may be possible with a pulse motor but it would have to be defined and you would need scope traces to confirm the observations.  You would expect to see something like very nice sine waves that are slightly modified by the drive coil synchronously adding energy.  Somewhere you would need to see an energy drain that is also synchronous with the resonance.

To repeat myself, "resonance" is often an ill-defined and often abused term.  Some pulse motor designs are very likely to be devoid of all resonance.  Note that they are "pulse circuits" which is a separate and distinct class of circuits as opposed to "resonant circuits."

I think you made reference to musical instruments and resonance.  In all musical instruments there are two distinct components that slosh the energy back and forth at the resonant frequency, and the energy in each component is in a separate and distinct form.  Can you clearly identify these two separate and distinct components and energy storage mechanisms in a pulse motor to find resonance?  Also, keep in mind that "resonance" has an almost magical and mystical meaning on the forums that is often quite disconnected from reality.  Suppose you make a fantastic pulse motor with great performance and it doesn't resonate!  It doesn't really matter, does it?

Just for fun, think of all of the wind instruments that don't use a reed, like the pipes in a pipe organ.  Let's take a look at a lowly beer bottle.  When you blow across the opening in a beer bottle you hear a resonant tone.  Can you identify what's resonating in the case of the beer bottle?  This question is open to anybody.

Anyway, I hope what I just said helped!  I don' see resonance in your waveforms, I see a setup that is recirculating energy to use it again.  If you are getting better performance from your pulse motor like this, then the proof is in the pudding!

MileHigh

[Magluvin]

Anyway is that resonance. Or not sloshy enough. 

Lol slosh.  I dont find it to be a good word to describe resonance really. Sounds a bit messy and not in order.

MH, do the books call it sloshing? Just wondered. Dont think I have heard it put that way before. I could be missing out here.


Mags

[MileHigh]

Magluvin:

I am pretty sure you will find the term "sloshing" in text books.  Between peaks, you have that mixture where one component of the energy is in electric field form and the other part is in magnetic field form and they are continuously transitioning and 90 degrees out of phase with each other so that sounds "sloshy."  Just recently I read "tank circuit" was derived from the notion of water sloshing back and forth in a water tank.

MileHigh

[Farmhand]

Well Milehigh, I did show that when I speed the motor up to a certain speed there are sine waves both in voltage and current wave forms, Already shown, and I don't limit myself to your definitions of resonance.

It's obvious you just don't want to get it, because the improvement was immediate and obvious as soon as I put the charging coil near the rotor and it sped up as a result, an immediate increase in torque and efficiency. I need to prove nothing. My claims of an improvement are blatantly obvious in just the design principal alone. However when I am ready I will prove whatever I please. No one can stop me simply because all anyone can do is talk at me. 

1. There is the resonance frequency of a coil, a coil can be tuned to resonance frequency and not actually exhibit resonance as such due to loading.

2. There is EM resonance.

3. There is sound resonance.

4. There is mechanical resonance.

5. Resonance has different meanings just like many other words.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonance

In physics, resonance is the tendency of a system to oscillate with greater amplitude at some frequencies than at others. Frequencies at which the response amplitude is a relative maximum are known as the system's resonant frequencies, or resonance frequencies. At these frequencies, even small periodic driving forces can produce large amplitude oscillations, because the system stores vibrational energy.
Resonance occurs when a system is able to store and easily transfer energy between two or more different storage modes (such as kinetic energy and potential energy in the case of a pendulum). However, there are some losses from cycle to cycle, called damping. When damping is small, the resonant frequency is approximately equal to the natural frequency of the system, which is a frequency of unforced vibrations. Some systems have multiple, distinct, resonant frequencies.
Resonance phenomena occur with all types of vibrations or waves: there is mechanical resonance, acoustic resonance, electromagnetic resonance, nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR), electron spin resonance (ESR) and resonance of quantum wave functions. Resonant systems can be used to generate vibrations of a specific frequency (e.g. musical instruments), or pick out specific frequencies from a complex vibration containing many frequencies (e.g. filters).

This diagram below I was referring to.

There is a resonant exchange of energy from coils to rotor to coils to rotor again and so on.

I think that is tied to the way the currents can become sinusoidal in both coils, the currents don't always look the same as in the shots there, I showed shots of two sine waves for the current as well before, and a voltage sine wave on both coils can be had as well. Not many resonant setups are resonant at all frequencies, there is a frequency where there is best resonance effects. Anyway I'm not here to prove anything to you and the setup is not even complete.

Anyway If I didn't recognize resonance and how to attain it I would not have so many resonant devices. I'm outa time to argue the point any longer. I have things to do.

And since I have nothing to add in this thread for some time it's bye bye for a while.   

[Magluvin]

Magluvin:

I am pretty sure you will find the term "sloshing" in text books.  Between peaks, you have that mixture where one component of the energy is in electric field form and the other part is in magnetic field form and they are continuously transitioning and 90 degrees out of phase with each other so that sounds "sloshy."  Just recently I read "tank circuit" was derived from the notion of water sloshing back and forth in a water tank.

MileHigh

I see that there are references to sloshing of water in a tank. There are some examples out there. There are some differences though. If we had a tank and it teetered a bit from on side to the other where the water is nicely moving from left to right, back and forth, from end to end and time it till it settles, then that would be very close to an LC. But the water tank could take a random tilt, splash or hit and not be in the same state of resonance as we are discussing, but still take a relatively long time to settle, where the LC if left on its own after a random charge or induced pulse will still only continue to 'slosh' for a time period at its resonant frequency, like a bell.  If the teetering tank were rocking in a nice timely back and forth slosh and it were disrupted with a random teeter jolt( input is teeter for the water tank), and left to react, the rocking rhythm would not be the same, yet it would continue a more complex sloshing than the single sloshing wave back and forth. Instead of tic toc tic toc, it could go toc tic  tic toc  tic  tictoctic toc toc. lol An lc would not behave that way if disrupted during resonance. It will just ring at the same freq at different levels or be nulled out, depending on the disruption and timing.

So the water tank I can see sloshing being a good term any way you look at it. But an LC is consistent in maintaining its freq of operation when set off with nearly what ever input or disturbance. Not that it cannot pass currents of other freq, but we are talking about resonant states. Sloshing seems sloppy, splashy, random energy dissipation and distribution, where an LC works more in an orderly fashion and a pendulum is a much closer model in most ways. In order to get the water tank to slosh in resonance would require a controlled input to get it smoothly sloshing back and forth. But a pendulum, no matter the input pulse, where or when, will always resort to its resonant freq or a dead stop, just like an LC. 

If we look up slosh, the definitions dont coincide with resonance at all. So maybe for some beginners the term sloshing might lead them to think of something other than what is really happening in an LC circuit. 

The water tank is a better analogy of an 'LC ladder' with many LCs in a series parallel fashion where you pulse the input and the LCs transfer their energies to the next LC and down the line where the output is delayed by the progression through the circuit. The output is usually a load. But the load can be eliminated and the 'wave' will bounce back at the end of the circuit back to the beginning. Like the water tank.

Now this LC ladder can be randomly disturbed else where in the circuit or random input pulses, 'will' have  ripples and disturbed waves 'sloshing' around the circuit. Of course its 2 dimensional, and water is 3d.

Mags