Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells

[b_rads]

Thanks but I need big electrodes. The aluminum foil can be rolled out in long sheets, i need something like that. 

IB2: Hard to beat US Pennies minted prior to 1983, as these can be soldered together.  You might be more interested in silver foil.  I have purchased this in the local arts and craft store.  The sheets as best I can remember are about 4" x 6", I have used double stick tape and stuck this to mylar (plastic sheets) and it works very well.  This stuff is used to silver picture frames, etc,.

Brad S

[Peanutbutter29]

Alright, I've had some time to do a bit more research and learning.  Rambling to follow.... I must say first (as far as I know) Hutchinson and Bedini are the only 2 to use crystal cells right? 
  I know back when I was researching Hutchinson didn't release ANY information about these other than " the crystal structure, size and shape (geometry) allows for a conversion of "X energy" to electricity"  He was very specific that the crystal (s) structure and construction was key.  At any rate, I'm not sure what has been released since then and his you tube only shows the old batts (wonder if they still run?)  I assume since he didn't get awarded the contract with China;  they didn't meet the 100ma minimum required. 
  For Bedini I don't believe he was even around when I was researching and it seems somewhat tough to find info about the person.  From his drawings I had seen, I just assumed they were from 100 years ago.  I was a bit saddened to see these are newer ideas and drawings (not as impressive or unique then).  I have seen quite a few drawings about the motors and batteries he ran, however they are decidedly electrolytic and Bemf (motor).  I had not, do not take great stake in this person, in terms of accuracy of claims. 

  I'm only pointing these two things out as they keep ringing in my head.  I can't say Hutchinson is very accurate either (though I DO think once he made an effect, but never re-created or knows what it was).  To me, I feel as if were running on a lot of supposition as to operation.  Again, my first post, I did comment that my decision to try these was;  they seemed to be heading away from a normal galvanic type operation and thus my interest.

Okay now onto some general info stuff....

magnesium based batteries-
http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2011-01/truth-about-toyota%E2%80%99s-new-magnesium-battery
http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-06-high-energy-density-magnesium-batteries-smart.html
There was also another article I can't find again that was talking about magnesium batteries in the 60's.  That, then..they couldn't store equal to an Alkaline

Batteries, in general, fit 2 categories;  non- and re- chargeable.
Typical Non-rechargeable Alkaline cell (electrodes Zn and MnO2)(Electrolyte KOH)
The half-reactions are:[10]

    Zn(s) + 2OHâˆ'(aq) â†' ZnO(s) + H2O(l) + 2eâˆ' [e° = -1.28 V]
    2MnO2(s) + H2O(l) + 2eâˆ' â†'Mn2O3(s) + 2OHâˆ'(aq) [e° = +0.15 V]

Looking first at the Zn electrode you can see it requires OH to "oxidize" and produce water and 2e- (negative 1.28v).  You can see below, the OH is produced by Mn02 reaction with H20 IF in the presence of a 2e- electric field.  So this battery is not re-chargeable because Zn is being diminished and MNO3 is being reduced.  The battery is dead when the Zn is depleted.  All non- rechargeable cells work in this fashion.

**Note above that although KOH was the electrolyte..it was not used in the formula for half-reactions

Typical Rechargeable cell Lead-Acid Battery (electrodes Pb and PB02) (Electrolyte H2SO4)
Discharge Half-reactions:
    Negative plate reaction: Pb(s) + HSO4(aq) â†' PbSO4(s) + H+(aq) + 2-e
    Positive plate reaction: PbO2(s) + HSO4(aq) + 3H+(aq) + 2-e â†' PbSO4(s) + 2H2O(l)

Here when Pb is in the presence of HS04 it is Oxidized to produce PBSO4 a H and 2e-.  On the positive plate you can see PBO2 when in the presence of 3H and 2e- will reduce to PBSO4 and H20.   When completely discharged BOTH  plates are PBSO4 (net neutral) and the H2SO4 is diluted (this is why salinity is used for battery charge level).

Charge Half reactions:
    Negative plate reaction: PbSO4(s) + H+(aq) + 2-e â†' Pb(s) + HSO4(aq)
    Positive plate reaction: PbSO4(s) + 2H2O(l) â†' PbO2(s) + HSO4(aq) + 3H+(aq) + 2-e

Here we can see when the Negative PBSO4 has H and 2e-, it is oxidized to produce PB and HSO4.  On the positive plate PBSO4 in the presence of 2H20 will reduce back to PBO2 and H and 2e-.  The 2e- on the charge cycle is being provided by an external source.

So that shows basic battery chemistry.  These are single replacement (displacement) reactions, there is only one oxidative and reduction reaction.  It is key that a rechargeable cell have a "closed loop" reaction, and thus usually uses and Oxide of the same metal.   It is a key note that a non-rechargeable cell does not represent a loop and one electrode is oxidized (lost).

Now you probably totally have forgot the mention of KOH not being in the equation for an Alkaline.  There is a good reason why:  KOH is not considered because of the application of a Ion separator. 
http://www.scitopics.com/Battery_Separator.html
This is REQUIRED in all "dry" type cells of today.

Also see the predecessor here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_bridge

This will prove to be a key in design, however does lead to more of a "typical" battery system.  Also, whenever we mix multiple Salts / electrolytes together; we are likely to get double replacement reactions (as mentioned).  This makes not only the chemistry complex, but also the possibility of a "closed loop" re-chargeable system;  more complex as well.  This is not saying less possible, just much more complex.

If your with me, I believe this means gypsum is acting as a ion separator as is, most likely glue-all

If we look at an electrolysis reaction between copper and Epsom salts we see:
Cu + MgSO4 + 2 H2O â†' H2 + CuSO4 + Mg(OH)2 

In this case the MgSO4 is oxidized by OH (electrolysis of water) causing a single replacement with SO4 producing MG(OH)2.  The Free SO4 is reduced by Cu producing CUSO4. 
  If we were to substitute Al above, you should end up with Al2(SO4)3 and Mg(OH)2, I cannot find a proof of this but I believe it to be the case.  So, in order to actually take a charge; here it would produce Mg(OH)2 only by the 2e- charge current.  When current is removed, then there should be an attempt to return to MgSO4.  This could explain the fast drop in apparent output after "removing" from the charge system.

Notes on running tests:
I can confirm that the phicell DOES seem to take and respond to a charge.  I noted current input very similar to output though, even up to 18v in.  While I was reading up I tried to seal the Mg squares into the Phicell variations I'd made, but loss most of the conduction to the cell (gelcoat ran under Mg, from one tear apart).  However 2 still showed V and less Ua but would take a charge.  The output did increase and voltage, but current seemed to drop quickly.

Don't think I had listed my phicell formula for the first cells, but it is;  1/4 Substitute : 1 Alum : 1 Table salt : 1/4 plaster of paris (gypsum) (Highest V and Ma from electrolyte tests)  (also epsom or borax will cause a precipitation (reduction) if added to this so, not used)

The glue cells are finally dry and show about .6V each and around 200uA (settled). 

The Superheated cell is showing 1.3V and 30uA today.  1 ml was added the first day and 1ml yesterday.  Adding 1ml today 1.4v @ 3ma, so far, this means (from what I can test) it is not dissolving.  or at least very slowly.

I've ordered the parts for Lasersabers ''super efficient joule ringer" for testing these at least.

Lastly, I constructed a cell from the "now dry" dark mush from my very first heated cell, hard to say what all is in there, but it its BLACK (magnesium diboride I believe).  I used Ion separators on both plates (as that DOES increase current) and it is holding steady at around 1.8v and 1ma.  I'll have to wait until the ringer to test.

Sorry to be so long, but i hope it will help provide some insight.
Thanks


EDIT:  @ IB, I believe Al foil is about as cheap as you can get per square inch.  Try a "dollar store" they have normal (very thin) aluminum foil rolls for 1.00 that should work.  I know from doing lifters, that was the cheapest / lightest I could find. 

(*thinking back to the HH0 and H2 engine testing........)

[jbignes5]

Aluminum foil makes for a great cheap electrode. Does anyone know of another cheap, easy to get a hold of electrode to go with the aluminum foil? I need another electrode that's like aluminum foil - cheap and a lot of it. Thanks!

What about graphite drawn on paper? This way you can use the paper for the separator.....


I had some great success with graphite colored onto paper. Just make sure the graphite is not in contact with the aluminum.

[b_rads]

What about graphite drawn on paper? This way you can use the paper for the separator.....


I had some great success with graphite colored onto paper. Just make sure the graphite is not in contact with the aluminum.

I will have to give that a try.  I have tried carbon paper (tracing paper) and was not terribly impressed.  Powdered aquarium activated carbon affixed to paper might work well also. 

[Peanutbutter29]

Aluminum foil makes for a great cheap electrode. Does anyone know of another cheap, easy to get a hold of electrode to go with the aluminum foil? I need another electrode that's like aluminum foil - cheap and a lot of it. Thanks!

Oops, sorry about my prior edit.  I didn't read correctly.  If you want aluminum to be the positive, then Mg is about it.  If aluminum is negative you could use Iron, nickel, zinc, tin, lead, copper (not looking at cost here).
From single electrolyte tests I did try a couple to help: (an easy way to get an idea of assembled voltage ranges)
Alum 1tsp per 300ml
Al Mg - 1.32V 5ma
Al C   -   .73V 200ua
AL Al - 40mV   10ua

least there's a couple, oh and usually the Al Cu cells end up .5-6v (didn't run an electrolyte test on this combo since this number seems consistent)
not sure if any of this helps,...hope so.
thanks