Testing the TK Tar Baby

[MileHigh]

So tell us what you would want to do please.

[TinselKoala]

Guys, it seems that our TK is now getting as far out of control as FTC.  IF that's possible.  Certainly they've both been working on this for some time now.  And all that 'passion'.  If I didn't know better I'd think they're both in love.  LOL.I certainly endorse that 'reason' that he's proposed for his continual reference to this.  That he finds it 'funny'.  It's always a good thing to laugh.  And  I think the essential difference between us is that I freely acknowledged a mere computation error.  TK the poor soul needs to concede a profound misunderstanding related to power analysis.  Understandably he DARE not. Actually it started off at nearer 1 liter.  But with that rather dramatic insertion of that element resister there was a significant amount of it splattered and spilled out.  But I think that 0.7 liters is certainly a conservative and fair assessment.This is somewhat confusing.  YES it's the temperature of the element resistor.  YES it appears to have reduced after its immersion in water.  YES I think it's a fair measure of the temperature of that water as it was evident OVER TIME.  I'm satisfied that this much he's got right.  Which is REMARKABLE.And guys.  RED ALERT - MORE SPIN.  The rise in 20 degrees took less than 10 minutes - AFTER we changed the the applied switching frequency.  And it certainly DID NOT represent a stable temperature of the water - as it didn't have enough time to stabilise.  We HAD to stop that test.  It was just WAY more energy than I was comfortable with.  ANd 104 degrees centigrade was STILL the measure of the heat on the load resistor.  That's PRECISELY where that probe was attached.And GUYS.  We ALL know this.  A Joule is the quantity of POWER computed over 1 second.  And a WATT is a unit of power that is representative of the energy and voltage applied over a representative sample of voltages.  I think TK is simply trying to remind himself of this.  It's possibly the kind of repetition he needs to get something 'drilled' into that mind of his.  Hopefully he won't AGAIN try and claim that 0.32 mA x vbatt is the wattage when it's calculated over a mere 12.4% of a single duty cycle. LOL.LOL I LOVE the word 'flabbegasted'.  And I'm neither arrogant nor ignorant.  I think the word he's looking for is 'indifferent'.  Notwithstanding all the CRUEL treatment.    And INDEED I'm prone to the occasional error.  Aren't we all?  I don't think I'VE ever misrepresented myself as an EXPERT.  Let alone a SCIENTIST with MULTIPLE degrees. 

Kindest regards guys.  And I've spared you that RIDICULOUS math reference.  It's so LOADED with spin and misrepresentation that it'll likely confuse God himself.

Rosemary

You are digging ever deeper into your hole.

If 700 mL is an accurate and fair assessment, why do you report it as 900 mL?
If the water wasn't actually boiling, why do you report that it was?
And you are still confounding your Joules and your Watts, and my calculation of the instantaneous power is correct and any person you ask will tell you so. YOUR OWN OSCILLOSCOPE WILL EVEN TELL YOU SO.
Go ahead, produce someone who agrees with you and not with me, PW, and the others who have analyzed that data. GO AHEAD. SHOW SOME EVIDENCE FOR YOUR CLAIM. You cannot.

A Joule is a quantity of ENERGY. There is NO TIME INVOLVED, just as there is no time involved in a "mile" or a "quart" or a "rock" or a "mosfet" or a "bag of peanuts".  POWER IS A RATE, not a quantity. There is TIME involved in POWER. That same JOULE of energy could be dissipated very quickly or dragged out over a long time. You can eat a bag of peanuts all at once (one bag per minute for one minute), or you can eat one nut per day for many weeks (one one-hundredth of a bag per day for one hundred days). The WATT is the RATE at which JOULES are dissipated. A WATT is one Joule PER SECOND. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. If you dissipate ONE JOULE very quickly you have a HIGH POWER LEVEL. if you dissipate that SAME ONE JOULE very slowly, you have a LOW POWER LEVEL. One Joule can be turned into KILOWATTS of power for a brief instant or it can be turned into microWatts of power for a much longer interval.
One WATT, though... is ALWAYS one Joule PER SECOND. If I go through a tenth of a Joule of energy per a tenth of a second, the power is ONE WATT during that tenth of a second (0.1/0.1 = 1). If I dissipate 1000 Joules of energy per 1000 seconds, the power is ONE WATT for that entire time of 1000 seconds. Observe: (1 watt) x (1000 seconds) == 1000 Wattseconds.... aka 1000 JOULES. Note the technical use of the common words PER, indicating a division operation, and FOR, indicating a multplication operation. One WATT FOR 1000 SECONDS == 1 x 1000 == 1000 Joules. One thousand Joules PER 1000 seconds == 1000/1000 = 1 Joule PER second == one WATT.
ENERGY, Joules, is CONSERVED. ENERGY IN = ENERGY OUT. POWER, Watts, is not necessarily conserved. A peak level of 1 kW input power can result in peak output power levels of hundreds of kiloWatts or more if the energy discharges are made FOR very short durations.

Take that paragraph to ANY PHYSICIST OR EE ANYWHERE ON EARTH -- or for that matter to 99 percent of the posters ON THIS FORUM --  and ask them to tell you what is right, and what is wrong with it. Go ahead, Ainslie... as you have said to me: I DARE YOU.

[TinselKoala]

And here's another doozy.

My dear TK,  This would ENTIRELY satisfy your standards of proof.  We all know this.  It is NOT, however, scientific.

Rosie Pose

AGAIN SHE LIES. I explicitly state what, in the post? I state that if AINSLIE WINS that would PRELIMINARILY validate her basic claim and make further testing worthwhile. Entirely satisfy my standards of proof? Hardly. It would make calorimetry marginally worthwhile as well as more tightly controlled testing. Here we are talking just about uncontrolled remote, Ainslie-performed tests.. which beggar the idea of "standards of proof".

On the other hand... how could a FAILURE to win IN A TEST ENTIRELY UNDER HER OWN CONTROL be interpreted in any other way than to disprove her claim altogether? Batteries either discharge, in which case they will be weaker than non-discharged ones, or they do not. The claim is that batteries can heat a load usefully without discharging. Boiling under a quart of water for 24 hours is kind of a minimal test of utility but yes, it is acceptable under my standards of proof... which is that FAILURE TO DISPROVE an hypothesis is the only kind of "proof" that counts.

Of course at the root of her refusal ever to perform such a test is that her apparatus simply cannot even do this much WITH battery discharging, the way it is built. It won't even run for 24 hours boiling water as it is set up now, because the Q1 mosfet will fail from overheating.

Need I point out that there is a very simple way to PROVE ME WRONG about this?
Word salads and threats and calling me a criminal because I challenge her claims is not that way.

[Groundloop]

You are digging ever deeper into your hole.

If 700 mL is an accurate and fair assessment, why do you report it as 900 mL?
If the water wasn't actually boiling, why do you report that it was?
And you are still confounding your Joules and your Watts, and my calculation of the instantaneous power is correct and any person you ask will tell you so. Go ahead, produce someone who agrees with you and not with me, PW, and the others who have analyzed that data. GO AHEAD. SHOW SOME EVIDENCE FOR YOUR CLAIM. You cannot.

A Joule is a quantity of ENERGY. There is NO TIME INVOLVED, just as there is no time involved in a "mile" or a "quart" or a "rock" or a "mosfet" or a "bag of peanuts".  POWER IS A RATE, not a quantity. There is TIME involved in POWER. That same JOULE of energy could be dissipated very quickly or dragged out over a long time. You can eat a bag of peanuts all at once (one bag per minute for one minute), or you can eat one nut a day for many weeks (one one-hundredth of a bag per day for one hundred days). The WATT is the RATE at which JOULES are dissipated. A WATT is one Joule PER SECOND. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. If you dissipate ONE JOULE very quickly you have a HIGH POWER LEVEL. if you dissipate that SAME ONE JOULE very slowly, you have a LOW POWER LEVEL. One Joule can be turned into KILOWATTS of power for a brief instant or it can be turned into microWatts of power over a much longer interval.
One WATT, though... is ALWAYS one Joule PER SECOND. If I go through a tenth of a Joule of energy in a tenth of a second, the power is ONE WATT during that tenth of a second. If I dissipate 1000 Joules of energy in 1000 seconds, the power is ONE WATT for that entire time of 1000 seconds.
ENERGY, Joules, is CONSERVED. ENERGY IN = ENERGY OUT. POWER, Watts, is not necessarily conserved. A peak level of 1 kW input power can result in peak power levels of hundreds of kiloWatts or more if the energy discharges are made very short in duration.

Take that paragraph to ANY PHYSICIST OR EE ANYWHERE ON EARTH -- or for that matter to 99 percent of the posters ON THIS FORUM --  and ask them to tell you what is right, and what is wrong with it. Go ahead, Ainslie... as you have said to me: I DARE YOU.

TK,

>>>A Joule is a quantity of ENERGY. There is NO TIME INVOLVED

You are wrong about the definition of Joule.

Here is from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule

"The joule is a derived unit of energy or work in the International System of Units. It is equal to the energy expended (or work done) in applying a force of one newton through a distance of one meter (1 newton meter or N·m), or in passing an electric current of one ampere through a resistance of one ohm for one second."

That means that 1 Joule = 1 Watt per second. That also mean that 1 Watt per Second = 1 Joule.

You are stating that the above is not true. But it must be, the equal sign makes it true.

Joule is a definition of WORK done. And to do WORK you must do it over a time frame.
1 Watt is a unit but 1 Watt per Second is a unit of work done.

GL.

[TinselKoala]

TK,

>>>A Joule is a quantity of ENERGY. There is NO TIME INVOLVED

You are wrong about the definition of Joule.

Here is from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule

"The joule is a derived unit of energy or work in the International System of Units. It is equal to the energy expended (or work done) in applying a force of one newton through a distance of one meter (1 newton meter or N·m), or in passing an electric current of one ampere through a resistance of one ohm for one second."

That means that 1 Joule = 1 Watt per second. That also mean that 1 Watt per Second = 1 Joule.

You are stating that the above is not true. But it must be, the equal sign makes it true.

Joule is a definition of WORK done. And to do WORK you must do it over a time frame.
1 Watt is a unit but 1 Watt per Second is a unit of work done.

GL.

Sorry but you are also incorrect here. It is true that FUNDAMENTALLY all units are derived from length, time, charge and mass. Therefore yes, deep into the definition of the Joule, a quantity of energy, there is a time element involved. But there is no time element in the first definition you cite, is there, and the second electrical definition is circular just like Ohm's Law.

However if you DO THE MATH (tm RA) you will find that one Joule is one Watt TIMES one second, not one watt per second.

The Joule is a quantity. A quantity DIVIDED by a time interval is a rate. Kilometers per hour, amperes per second: all rates. A Joule per second  means 1 Joule / one second, and that is the definition of a WATT-- Power, the RATE at which units of work are done.
A Watt is a rate. A rate MULTIPLIED by a time interval yields a quantity. Burn a hundred watt bulb for ten seconds and what energy has been dissipated?
One hundred watts TIMES ten seconds equals 1000 Joules. Joules: the units of work, which can be done slowly (low power) or quickly (high power).

"That means that 1 Joule = 1 Watt per second. That also mean that 1 Watt per Second = 1 Joule.

You are stating that the above is not true. But it must be, the equal sign makes it true."

No, my friend, you have misstated the formulae. 1 Watt = one Joule /second. One Joule = one watt X one second. And of course two wrong equations with the same terms are equal if they are simply flipped around like you have done.

1 Joule is not equal to 1 watt per second, it is equal to one wattsecond, or one watt FOR one second, mathematically 1 watt x 1 second.
1 Watt IS equal to 1 Joule PER second, mathematically 1 Joule / 1 second.