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[sarkeizen]

I'll leave out the rest because you are just treading in the past.

I guess that's an easy way to avoid admitting that you're wrong.  "Oh hey a few hours ago Lumen made a bigoted comment about mental illness but that's okay it's in the past"

The Karpen pile is a uniform-temperature thermoelectric battery that produces substantial electrical output from an isothermal environment.

Some people claim it is this.  What evidence is there that is doing this?

It's been doing this for over 60 years

Apparently you believe it is doing this but again what's the evidence?

and is understood to be pulling energy from environmental heat

Again this seems to be your belief but again what is the evidence?

ltage is about 1 volt and to run a tiny motor to work a switch would require at least a few milliamps minimum. 
Lord Kelvin has stated in the 2LOT that this would indeed be impossible, yet oops there it is!

Please quote what Kelvin specifically said and what makes what you believe has been observed is in violation of that.  Please be specific, as that is not really something you do well.  I won't hold my breath.  I expect broad pronouncements, preening and insults but hey you could surprise me if you try to be less....you.

So you sit there and claim Philip's idea to be impossible because he has tried for a few years to build it

No I've said that if you believe that Philip's delivering something is evidence of Philip's ability to deliver than you must also believe that Philip's failure to deliver is evidence of his inability to deliver.  This is just Bayesian probability.  Math a lot more strongly supported than your belief in someone saying something somewhere about some batter.

and the math shows it to be impossible, but yet you totally ignore the fact that the 2LOT theory was compromised

So the fact that someone said something violates 2LOT and you believe it is, in your mind a counter to the idea that Philips idea very probably doesn't work.  Amusingly in order for your argument to mean anything you would have to also believe that one 2LOT violation validates all proposed mechanisms for violating 2LOT which is clearly untrue but it's still amusing that you appear to believe it.

[MileHigh]

that produces substantial electrical output

The voltage is about 1 volt and to run a tiny motor to work a switch would require at least a few milliamps minimum.

karpen systems have been built with hundreds times power densities of the original.they will flash l.e.d,s  permanently,power ipods permanently

As far as I am concerned you guys are way off base.

For starters you are jumping to a conclusion when the data is not all in.  The experiment is not necessarily over, the setup could die in 10 years or 50 years, it's undetermined.  I have read about it before, and I did a few quick reads today.  The setup itself is shrouded in mystery and is not even being shown publicly.  I believe that the argument is that it's "too expensive" to create a space to put the device on display and in my opinion that's simply not credible.  There is always the possibility that somebody is doing this intentionally because they perceive that it's in the interest of the institution.  The mystery creates buzz and the publicity is good.

On the technical side, this "motor" device does not make any contact with the Karpen pile for some amount of time.  I don't know the exact figure, it might be 10 seconds, it might be a minute.  I am just not up to doing the searching an the reading again.  When the contact is finally made, it's made for a fraction of a second and the motor has a "tick."  Then the process starts all over again.  That's a far cry from your characterizations above.

When contact is made, the amount of energy discharged might be a hundredth of a millijoule - we don't know.  When you average out the power consumption, it might be in sub microwatt range.  I am just throwing the numbers out there, because I am not sure if the institution is putting out any numbers.  One more time, it's all shrouded in mystery.  What I firmly believe is that my characterization is much closer to reality than the characterizations quoted above.

We all know the phenomenon where when the batteries in a flashlight are "dead" if you wait a few days the flashlight will work again for a short amount of time.  If you are willing to do the test, with "dead" batteries you could have a circuit that makes a LED flash for a millisecond, waits a minute, and then makes the LED flash for a millisecond and repeats.  There is a decent chance that a setup like that could run for months on end.  This is all hypothetical for illustrative purposes.  The point being that when a battery is disconnected, the battery has a chance to "regroup" and provide a short burst of power representing a minuscule amount of energy before it needs to rest and regroup again.

So, going back to the Karpen pile, it's a distinct possibility that there is indeed the chemical energy available to run it for more than 60 or 70 or 80 years.  It's just a question of doing the proper number crunching.  But lo and behold, to the best of my recollection the institute that has the hidden Karpen pile will not permit this to be done.

Therefore, we simply don't know - period.  We can't say that it's in violation of the 2LOT.   We can't say all the numbers for the available chemical energy vs. the average power consumption are readily available so we can't say anything about that either.  We don't know one way or the other.  Who cares that it has allegedly run for 60 years non stop, it doesn't mean anything.

What we do know is a little tiny button cell might be able to run a watch for 2 1/2 years.  So if you had 30 tiny little button cells, something that could easily fit in the palm of your hand, and if they had a very very long shelf life when stored properly, then they could power a watch for 75 years.  At least that is food for thought.

MileHigh

[lumen]

He (the keeper) took the system out of it's secured shelf and allowed the specialists to measure its output with a digital multimeter.
This happened on Feb. 27, 2006, and the batteries had indicated the same 1Volt as back in 1950.

Yes there are examples of things running on micro energy, such as the Oxford bell, that will eventually run down over a few hundred years.
The Karpen pile is however different in that even one cycle would power the Oxford bell for another 100 years. It is drawing much more current to do the work because the voltage is very low.
You are also right in that it's not my place to say that it is a direct violation of 2LOT just because it generates power from an unknown source for 60+ years.
Just because the inventor, who was very well respected in that time, makes the claim that it runs on environmental heat, and that no one else can determine the source of energy, does not make it true right?

Or even the fact that you can lead a horse to water but..........
And for sarky as I said before......."and never will"!

Established during the 19th century, the Kelvin-Planck statement of the Second Law says, "It is impossible for any device that operates on a cycle to receive heat from a single reservoir and produce a net amount of work." This was shown to be equivalent to the statement of Clausius.

[profitis]

@milehigh.. Let me be more specific.the karpen pile in the romanian museum works precisely according to text-book predictions of voltage change with oxygen gas saturation differences on oxygen gas electrodes in  line with the nernst equasion.ie.it behaves appropriately as we would expect a pair oxygen gas electrodes to behave.whats your complaint now.how dare you come here on this thread and tell us that the standard chemistry textbooks are wrong.how dare you.

[sarkeizen]

He (the keeper) took the system out of it's secured shelf and allowed the specialists to measure its output with a digital multimeter.

Does that violate 2LOT?  I measured something with a multimeter once and it showed 1 volt.  Should I have called a press conference?

Yes there are examples of things running on micro energy, such as the Oxford bell, that will eventually run down over a few hundred years.

The only reason we know that it will run down in 100 years or so is because we know what it was constructed of and it's principle of operation.  Take away all that and add some claims about ZPE and 2LOT and you really have no better evidence that this is 2LOT violating any more than the bell is.

The Karpen pile (of crap) is however different in that even one cycle would power the Oxford bell for another 100 years. It is drawing much more current to do the work because the voltage is very low.

Actually you don't really know that either but feel free to cite a source from a reputable journal.

You are also right in that it's not my place to say that it is a direct violation of 2LOT just because it generates power from an unknown source for 60+ years.

I think you mean *I* was right. ROFL.

Just because the inventor, who was very well respected in that time,

A combination of "how do you measure that?" and "who cares?".

makes the claim that it runs on environmental heat

And that's good evidence because claims are hard to make right?...oh wait no they're not.

and that no one else can determine the source of energy

Man do you try hard to brainwash yourself...one of your more amusing traits.

As far as I see nobody, other than nutcases like you actually care about it.  So yes, if everyone in the field was trying hard to figure this thing out that might have some significance in terms of evidence but when hardly anyone important is trying. It's not really as impressive as you would like to believe.  There are lots of things that nobody tries to figure out - I have a power source in my pool shed.  Nobody knows what it is either.  Does that somehow make it *more* credible as a 2LOT violation in your tiny, tiny mind?

Not only that but it appears that it's something that nobody can examine.  Again saying "nobody can figure this out" to something that hardly anyone is allowed to see isn't really that impressive.

Or even the fact that you can lead a horse to water but..........
And for sarky as I said before......."and never will"!

The hilarious thing is that I haven't even said this doesn't work.  It's very likely some combination of poor information (from Lumen NO...say it isn't so) and pretty standard physics.  However so far Lumen can't even explain why this is 2LOT violating, and now he says he can't say it is but he sure WAS saying that exact thing (stupidly) earlier so maybe he'll figure out what he wants to say and then say it but more likely he will just change to a different angle because he really doesn't know what he's talking about.

Established during the 19th century, the Kelvin-Planck statement of the Second Law says, "It is impossible for any device that operates on a cycle to receive heat from a single reservoir and produce a net amount of work." This was shown to be equivalent to the statement of Clausius.

Don't you have to demonstrate that this is, in fact the only reasonable explanation for what this thing is doing (if it's doing anything)?  Again all you seem to be saying is: "Somebody said it does this." and again you should probably have a higher evidence-bar.   Otherwise I have  a 2LOT violating piece of swampland to sell you.

This was kind of fun, but I think if you go back to your original plan of trying to convince yourself there's some conspiracy between Philip and myself it will be more fun.