Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?

[ltseung888]

Lawrence, your graph is largely uninterpretable without knowing the exact conditions under which the data were obtained. In addition, several things _are_ interpretable about the graph. First, both traces go below the zero baseline toward the end of the interval. This indicates either nonconservation of Miracles, or a certain imprecision or error in your data, or both.


*** Think about the condition of negative power as feedback to source as standard in AC Power Circuits.


Secondly, the magnitude of the difference at any given time is on the order of the value of the measurement itself. In other words, you are seeing a difference of a few milliWatts in a signal whose amplitude is a few milliWatts.

In such conditions it is imperative that results be shown _not_ from a single trial, but averages from multiple, even many trials, and error bars or some other measure of the variance in your data also shown.


***  There will be at least 10 groups of volunteers doing the trial before the oscilloscope-test-ready boards are sent to the top Universities.  Many Students will be having the Christmas Holidays.  Some may even be able to use the DSO at their university labs.


This will allow the signal-- any real differences-- to rise above the "noise" or random variations that can affect the results from single trials. And if the variance in the data -- the "error bars" -- is of the same order as the differences noted, then it is likely that the difference is not real and only due to chance variations in the noise level or the data.

I have already discussed some of the problems with your data collection methods, and I believe that if you have collected and used the data in that manner, to make this graph, that you are once again making extravagant claims without _real_ support from your experiments.

Do not worry about my data.  They are "indication experiments".  Do not trust their accuracy.  The accurate results will be from the top universities with top-of-the-line DSOs and experts in using such.


I have made the same claims hundreds of times before.  Now the top universities and "investors" are taking interest.  If I do not make such claims, no one will give me a platinum Visa card.  No invitations to present at top universities.  No participation at invention conferences. 


The nay sayers and the "paid debunkers" might have silenced me.  Please repeat the experiment.


(1) Use your best 2n2222 JT.
(2) Add a capacitor (e.g. 2.3V 10F) in parallel with a DC Power Supply. 
(3) Start your DC Power Supply from 0 V and get it to light the LED to acceptable brightness.
(4) Turn off your DC Power Supply and take it out all together if you prefer.
(5) Check whether your LED can stay on for at least another 20 minutes with only the capacitor.
(6) If so, do your oscilloscope experiments.  If you have only one DSO, follow the circuit diagram in nov 22a1.xls
(7) Discharge the capacitor thoroughly first.  Do the Output measurements at minute intervals first.  Use the steps mentioned at point (3) to create a known starting condition.
(8 ) After 20 readings or so, discharge the capacitor again thoroughly.
(9) Repeat (7) and do the Input measurements.  The starting condition may not be exact.


Treat this as an " Indication Experiment".  Show it to your contacts at top universities and admit that your DSO cannot provide the academic grade.  Your contacts may be able to arrange a chance for you to send an oscilloscope-test-ready board to the top university.  Your platinum visa card???


Relax and pray.  Document all efforts on the Internet.  Your safety is better when the knowledge is public.  Ignore all nay sayers.  Most of them do not even have the equivalent of an Atten Oscilloscope!

[ltseung888]

I just took a look at the spreadsheet.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1516.0;attach=8782
If I am reading it right, the circuit is powered by the charged-up capacitor and allowed to run. As it runs the frequency changes a bit as the cap runs down. The data collection begins at 1 kHz and continues for 20 minutes. The data is gathered like this, since Lawrence's scope only has two channels. The output power measurements are made and recorded first, and then the probes are unhooked, moved to the input power measuring points, and the input power is measured. Then for the next measurement pair the probes are moved back to the output power, etc. This moving around takes a minute, according to the notes in the spreadsheet.


*** No, No and No.  See my previous post for the exact measurement steps.

So for the final comparison, the output power measurement at time t is paired with an input power measurement at time t+1 minute, in a system with constantly decreasing input voltage from a capacitor.

Am I getting that right?  Sorry, your got it wrong this time.

Continue your questions.  Your questioning of the AC coupling was excellent. It really helped me to leap a giant step.  I am using DC Coupling from now on - so are all the volunteers.

[TinselKoala]

Continue your questions.  Your questioning of the AC coupling was excellent. It really helped me to leap a giant step.  I am using DC Coupling from now on - so are all the volunteers.

(7) Discharge the capacitor thoroughly first.  Do the Output measurements at minute intervals first.  Use the steps mentioned at point (3) to create a known starting condition.
(8 ) After 20 readings or so, discharge the capacitor again thoroughly.
(9) Repeat (7) and do the Input measurements.  The starting condition may not be exact.

I am astounded !! Lawrence.... that is even worse! You CANNOT take output data from one twenty minute run and compare it "minute by minute"  with input data from another, different twenty minute run!!! Who told you that was legitimate?
I am flabbergasted that you would even consider doing such a thing. It's outrageous. It invalidates ALL of your comparison data.
It  is such a basic error in methodology that most people would never even think it's possible. It's like coming to work with your pants on backwards and shoes from different pairs. Nobody is going to tell you "when you go to work, be sure your pants are on right and your shoes match" . They would never consider that anyone would NEED to be told that.

How are you "discharging thoroughly" your capacitor? Please give me the exact procedure you use for this, including times.

[ltseung888]

 http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110630015105AAuZR0y
Can power factor of an electrical system be measured as a negative value?
A negative power factor would indicate that current leads or lags the voltage by more than 90 degrees. Physically, that can happen if the load is returning power to the source rather than using power. For example, if an induction motor is used to operate an electric railway locomotive, the power factor will be lagging by less than 90 degrees as the locomotive climbs a hill. If the motor is nearly loaded, the power factor might be about 0.85. If the track is level at the top of the hill, the motor's load will be reduced and the power factor might drop to 0.65. As the locomotive begin to go downhill, the power factor drops more and may be come negative as the motor begins to operate as a generator returning braking power to the source.
Source(s):
I have worked as an engineer in the manufacture of variable frequency drives (VFD). We tested drives under load by using the VFD under test to control an induction motor which drove a second induction motor that was connected to utility (mains) power. Using the VFD to slightly overspeed the second motor forced that motor to become a generator and return power to the utility.

Another Answer:

The power factor itself, will be positive, between 0 and 1, and is given from cos (theta).

If it is 1, your load is purely resistive.
If it is 0, your load is purely reactive.

The angle theta, however, could be negative or positive.

If it's negative, then the reactive portion is capacitive, and your voltage is lagging behind the current.

If it's positive, then the reactive portion is inductive, and voltage is leading current.

[ltseung888]

I am astounded !! Lawrence.... that is even worse! You CANNOT take output data from one twenty minute run and compare it "minute by minute"  with input data from another, different twenty minute run!!! Who told you that was legitimate?
I am flabbergasted that you would even consider doing such a thing. It's outrageous. It invalidates ALL of your comparison data.
*** As I mentioned, I do indication experiments.  The top universities will have the DSO and experts to do the real experiments.  That is why we need them.

How are you "discharging thoroughly" your capacitor? Please give me the exact procedure you use for this, including times.
*** Use a wire to directly connect the two ends of the capacitor for 5 minutes.  Put it back on the JT circuit and the LED should show no light.  Check the Output voltage waveform on the Atten Oscilloscope.  It should show NO more characteristic pulsing waveform.

Great questions.  I am glad that I have ready answers before going to Tsinghua University.  Any more???