Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?

[poynt99]

c. How would this process possibly save energy?  This concept and technique was implemented with different set up to a vertical farm.  Details are commercial secrets.  Claimed savings in electricity bill > 50%.

Did that involve a change over from incandescent or CFL lighting to LED lighting?

[TinselKoala]

@TK

Is this what you are looking for?

Yes, Lawrence, thank you.

Please note several things. The very most important is that the waveform is not "square" in 3 of the shots. Only one of your probes is properly compensated. Another important issue is that the calibrator output is generally at around 3 volts for the Atten scope. I refer to your Manual, section 1.3.3. where probe compensation checking is described.

Your scope traces show three badly out-of-compensation probes and also some problem with voltages. Every probe should show the same voltage and the same _square_ waveform.

Only Scope 2, Channel 2 is showing the correct, 3 v p-p square waveform that the calibrator is putting out.

Clearly, a waveform that dips below the zero baseline due to improper probe compensation will affect your calculations.

Also, in the matter of your presentation: Once again, please insure that the channel baselines are _exactly_ on a screen horizontal graticule line, and that your _trigger_ is actually triggering on the channel you are displaying or discussing, unless other considerations apply. I would have expected all four traces to be presented with the baselines at the center graticule line of the respective screens, at the same vertical attenuation settings, and properly triggered on the channel that is displayed.

Bottom line: all your data so far is invalid because your probe compensation is incorrectly adjusted. Sorry. Next time.... RTFM.



We are being criticised by certain amateurs for relying solely on oscilloscope measurements in order to "debunk" claims of overunity ..... but as you may recall, I am critical of you for relying solely on oscilloscope measurements in _positive_ claim of overunity and I have told you that you need concurrent validity... agreement with other means of showing energy output. This of course destroys the amateur's false argument completely.

[TinselKoala]

Let me discuss the calibrator shots in detail. According to the Atten manual the calibrator output is at "about" 3 V p-p, a square wave, at 1 kHz frequency. Each probe should read the same: 3 v P-P, square wave, 1 kHz frequency.

Scope1, Probe 1: The vertical attenuator is set to 2 volts per division, The probe is reading almost 4 volts p-p. The most negative indication is below the zero baseline. The waveform isn't square. The trigger is set on a non-displayed channel and is not within the span of the waveform of interest. The scope is reporting a frequency of 49.9 Hertz.

Scope 1, Probe 2: The vertical attenuator is set to 5 volts per division and the probe is reading almost 20 volts p-p. Again, the most negative indication is below the zero baseline and the waveform isn't square. The trigger is set at the zero baseline of the channel -- OK but it should be a bit above so the "T" doesn't obscure the "2" baseline indicator, and so that you get a positive trigger on a signal, not noise. But... at least the frequency is reading correctly at 1.0000 kHz.

Scope 2, Probe 1: The vertical attenuator is set to 1 volt per division. The probe is reading about 3 V p-p, which is good, but again, the most negative indication is below the zero baseline and the waveform isn't square. The trigger is incorrectly set, again on the other channel and out of range. And the scope is reporting a frequency of "under 10 Hertz", clearly wrong.

Scope 2, Probe 2: Almost Correct! The vertical attenuation is set to 1 volt per division, and the voltage and waveforms are correct. The trigger is improperly set (see Scope 1, Probe 2 above) and the scope is again WAAYYY off in the frequency: it is reporting under 10 Hz again.


So... a pretty poor performance. There is something "fatally" wrong with each of the calibrator displays, besides "stylistic" factors. Incorrect voltage readings from two probes, three probes out of compensation, and wrong frequencies from three probe-scope combos.

YOUR DATA IS GARBAGE.  Every trace should look like the last one in voltage and waveform, and every frequency display should read 1.00000 kHz. If the scope calibrator screens are wrong, you can be quite certain that the experimental data also suffers from these flaws.

Sorry.

[TinselKoala]

I note that probe compensation adjustment is very rarely mentioned, but can cause severe problems in situations like these. I don't recall anyone ever asking that rank amateur scoposcopist Ainslie to check or adjust her probe compensation, for example. We don't often discuss using the "ON" button to turn a scope on, either..... the matter of probe compensation is just that basic.

A further probe issue that greatly affects power computations is skew. This is a lack of synchronous readings caused by propagation delays and the sequential nature of DSO channel sampling. Clearly, if you are taking a voltage measurement at one time and a current measurement at a different time, these cannot be legitimately multiplied together to give a power value. Yet people do it all the time, by not compensating for probe skew in their measurements. DSOs generally have the ability to compensate for probe skew; there may be a setup screen in the Atten scopes to handle it, and there certainly is such facility in the LeCroy that RA used for her bogus "experiments"-- and of course she never made use of probe skew correction. (This issue becomes even more important when active differential voltage probes or true Current probes are used, as they will have a different time constant than ordinary passive probes.)

[ltseung888]

The correct Oscilloscope Probe Calibration diagrams.

@TK,

I read the Manual and found the correct Oscilloscope Probe Calibration Procedure.  The correct photos are shown here.  Thank you for all your comments - they refer to incorrect photos.  All my posted data are correct as the calibration was done right for me when I bought the Scopes.

@testers and All researchers.

False Alarm from TK.....  I did not give him the correct calibration diagrams.....  The pictures on reply 450 are definitely not calibration pictures.  Should not blame TK for not recognizing them as oscilloscope manufacturers have different displays.