Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?

[plengo]

@MH,


now I see you starting to participate in a more elegant manner, thank you.


Very simple my speculation. In his motors in the past he uses miles and miles of copper wire for his motors. Right there I can speculate the resistance of his coil and by looking at his history and his motor size, I can safely say that that motor has miles of copper wire inside. Unless he has changed his ways of doing things.


He even measured the high voltage of over 1000 volts in his coils of that motor. That is a sign of high inductance and therefore lots of wires.


Now, if this assumption is correct, which I would think it is, I can also say his motor does not run in current, because at mili-amps he will not run that motor via conventional thinking.




So Mr Mile High, bare with me for a second, IF (big IF), IF his motor is indeed of extremely high inductance, would you agree that the current possible in flowing through it would be in mili-amps not amps? Specially with him physically having switches that arcs? So he is not running direct current, it is in worse case scenario, pulsed DC which in a coil with high inductance will resist most of the current flow on the first mili-seconds and develop a huge magnetic field that when collapses causes the arcing in thousands of volts.


If yes, how do you think his motor is spinning.


now, the theory of magnetic and electric induction is very clear (in the 1911 book of Charles Proteus Steinmetz) is dictating that the amount of magnetic flux will be proportional to the current and Inductance. Inductance will be proportional to the mass of the coil (or area). So say turns but that too simplistic, turns is really mass, more copper wire.


Longer the coil, bigger the magnetic field and less current can pass to the point where resistance will be the next barrier against current.


BUT, the magnetic field will still be tremendous for 270v and 1ma if you want. And that can move a ton of magnets attached to his shaft. I think his motor is just like the small ones he created in the past.




So we all agree he did not measure well things but it is very clear that my logic is pretty good and that is a challenge for conventional physics to explain. He is indeed cleverly and ineffectively using a huge coil to spin under higher voltage very limited by its resistance.


That one point is what I WANT you to understand, because I think you can study that and even help us. You are very smart but for some strange reason is not seeing the magnitude of my statement based ON SCIENCE.


It is correct to say that 1 mile of 1 ohm resistance wire will not have the same magnetic field as 10 miles of 1 ohm resistance wire under the same input power. The one with more mileage will have a much bigger magnetic field, if both are the same resistance.

This should be enough to light a bulb in your head.


[size=78%]Fausto.[/size]

[SkyWatcher123]

Hi folks, Hi plengo, here is a Newman chart.

peace love light
tyson

[MileHigh]

Fausto:

I am trying to encourage you to use your analytical skills to investigate Joe Newman's statements but unfortunately you are not taking the bait.  The best way to learn is to do the exploration yourself.

For starters, let's examine the Newman chart that Tyson just posted.  Everything on the left side where he equates current times the number of turns to give you one amp-turn is correct.

However, look at the right side of the chart.  He quotes the current times the volts and shows decreasing wattages as you increase the number of turns.  Why is he always quoting 10 volts?  Should the voltage change the more turns you have?  Have you ever questioned that part of the chart?   The right half if the chart is complete nonsense and doesn't even make any sense.  What is he talking about?  Is he talking about the resistive power dissipation of the coil?  If yes, that has nothing to do with the strength of the magnetic field generated by the coil.

It simply makes no sense to quote "volts x amps = watts" for a coil.   That's Joe Newman for you.  He either does not know what he is doing, or, he is intentionally deceiving his audience.

Back to the exploration....

MileHugh

[plengo]

MH:


ignore Newman please. I never seen that chart, neither I read Newman's theories or books more than an allegorical story.


I am not taking anything form him, I am reading the physics books myself and the formulas are very clear. Magnetic strength is equated with area of the wire, simple. More wire to the same equivalent resistance is indeed more magnetic field.


If you scale that where it will end? I really would like you to think in this lines and help me and us.


What would you do if you could have a mega Tesla magnetic field for a few mili-amps? Would not that be amazing? The theory is very clear, more mass more magnetic field. The current is also important but not only. Voltage is even more important.


Off course things are not so easy, but it is true. I did the experiment myself. More wire for exact same input power is more magnetic field, as long as you keep the resistance the same.


Fausto.

[MileHigh]

Fausto:

Back to the exploration.  I will state it again, you should be doing this and not me.

The web page to calculate the inductance of a coil:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/indsol.html#c1

For a coil length of 50 cm, radius 50 cm, with 1000 turns, (3.14 km wire length), air core, the inductance of the coil is 1.97 Henries.  I believe that is much less inductance than you were expecting.

Let's assume that Joe is using 12 gauge wire with a 3 mm diameter.  12 gauge wire has 0.1588 ohms resistance per 100 feet.  3.14 km is 1.95 miles.   1.95 miles is 10296 feet.

Therefore the resistance of the coil is (10296/100) x 0.1588 = 16.35 ohms.

So, what happens when you put 255 volts across the coil?

The time constant is L/R = 1.97/16.35 = 0.12 seconds.   So five time constants is 0.6 seconds.

Therefore after 0.6 seconds the giant coil could have 255/16.35 = 15.6 amperes of current flowing through it.  I don't think the alkaline AA batteries could put out 15.6 amperes.  I am guessing they start to strain around 7 amperes.

The rotating magnet can add some counter-EMF to reduce the current flow.  The giant rotating magnet might also increase the length of the time constant due to increased permeability to reduce the rate of increase in current flow.

That doesn't matter.  My conclusion is that you have always viewed the giant Newman motor with an emotional reaction and you never tried to do some very basic calculations to see what the results would be like.  That was a huge mistake on your part.   It seems pretty apparent to me that a bunch of AA cells in series can easily power the giant strange "Newman motor."  In reality the Newman motor is just an ordinary pulse motor that just happens to be so big that you have to move it around on the back of a pickup truck.   You pump somewhere between 50 and 200 watts into it, and it does between 10 and 20 watts of mechanical work to pump water.

Can you see how easy that was Fausto?  It's pretty clear to me that your assumptions were way off.  The mistake was to never try to model the motor and make some basic calculations.

Finally, in the chance that you don't understand the "time constant" references then I suggest that you go and study.  Every single pulse motor you will ever build has a time constant and it is critical to understanding how the motor works.  Without that level of understanding it's like you are flying blind.

MileHigh