Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE

[gyulasun]

Hi NRamaswami,

You wrote:  "In fact we find that when more than 3 wires are wound as trifilar or quadfilar, the best efficiency is achieved only in two layer coils. After that impedance goes up so much."

As per your description how your setup was connected,  you used a lamp load at the input in series with the primary electromagnet coils and you also had another load across the secondary output.  Is this correct? 
Now, If in this setup the impedance of the primary coil is increased (due to the more windings of the additional layers) then the total input current taken from the same mains decreases of course.  Is this what you mean on: 'efficiency goes down'?

If yes, then I ask: why did you connect a bank of bulbs in series with the output at all?  If the main reason was you wanted to keep the input current within reasonable bounds, then it may show the primary coils had too low impedance and drew too high input current without the bank of lamps. Is this a correct assumption?

It is okay for the primary coils that making more winding layers for them i.e. increasing the number of turns, their AC impedance goes up, this is what reduces input current draw in itself. And if you use a lamp or a bank of lamps in series with such increased impedance primary coil or coils, then you divide the same 220V ac input voltage into two parts, while the input current further decreases because the impedance or resistance of the lamps (which by the way is nonlinear) adds in series to that of the primary coil(s).  This is how I think.

Is it correct to deduce that without the series lamp or bank of lamps at the primary input, the overall efficiency of the same setup is just normal?

You wrote: "2. Am I right in the understanding that a low gauge wire with high DC Resistance will also have very high AC impedance."

I assume again: you mean thin diameter wire on the low gauge wire because otherwise decreasing gauge numbers mean increasing diameter wires, right?
To answer your question, with the use of thin wire which has high DC resistance and you make a coil with that, the AC impedance of such coil increases only by the amount of the increased DC resistance, the formula is Z=sqrt(R²+X_L²), and here I assume you use the same number of turns like you had for the thick wire coil to compare and you use the same plastic tube (OD) and core of course. Generally, thin wires are used when you need to produce a relatively high flux density for a job within a certain confined volume or space available and you achieve that by using many turns from the thin wire: more turns fit into or fill up a given volume made with thin wire than with thick wire. (here comes the Amper*Turns excitation question too: you increase the turns you get higher magnetic excitation).

You wrote: "4. So my understanding from your posts is that the rules or equations of Electromagnetism in books would not apply to the following situations."

Sorry but none of your a, b and c  assumptions comes from my posts...

Thick insulating layers for wires, or gaps between the wire turns may modify coil AC properties but basic rules or equations of electromagnetism still apply. It is one thing that very few devoted people took the trouble to actually explore and measure the effects of insulating material on inductance, self capacitance etc of coils but even less people took the trouble of writing software programs on such problems.


Gyula

[gyulasun]

Hi Gyula:

By the way I have no bobbins. I use plastic tubes which are 2.5 inch or 4 inch dia and 30 cm to 50 cm in length for winding the wires. Each one of them is packed with softiron rods. 2.5 inch takes about 60 of 6mm dia soft iron rods while 4 inches one take a lot more. Soft iron rods are about 43 cm long. or 30 cm long. All cores are either soft iron or made up of iron powder which is packed in to the tubes with plastic caps on both sides. 99% of the time we do not use iron powder. All winding is by hand so far. No machine winding and no enamelled wire so far.

That is okay you have no bobbins but plastic tubes, I used the term bobbin for referring to any coil holder. Regarding the 6mm iron rods, do you happen to have access to about 2mm dia soft iron rods? This would reduce heat losses in them from the eddy currents, especially if you cover them with insulating spray to prevent electrical conduction between two adjacent rods. Welding rods are a choice here too, Bedini suggested a certain type he found good for cores. Or there is the steel pellet #7 size, also covered by spray.

By the way, the repeatability for your setups is also influenced by factors like using identical air gaps between facing electromagnet poles, or like using iron rods cut to identical lengths with that of the plactic tubes holding the coils so that coil ends and rod ends are matched or not, etc. These are details that may affect both the outcome and the repeatability. You may watch for these factors (or you found that such details mean but a little).

Gyula

[Cadman]

Gyula & NRamaswami,

Here is an online coil calculator that allows input of insulation thickness and type, coil pitch etc.

https://www.rac.ca/tca/RF_Coil_Design.html

Be sure to read the whole page before using as there is some handy information, dialectric constant values etc.

I hope it's useful and does not add confusion to your efforts

Regards

[Cadman]

Attached is a very nice coil calculator spreadsheet (.xls). I did not write it, it was found online and I don't have the original link anymore.
It is for air-core coils and enameled wire but presents a great deal of coil information including the amount of wire needed, number of turns and layers, coil resistance and gauss strength at 3 different points.

Maybe one of you with good spreadsheet abilities could use the formulae from the online coil calulator and combine it with this spreadsheet and make a spreadsheet that can calculate both types of coils.

Regards

[NRamaswami]

Hi Gyula:

This is your question:

You wrote:  "In fact we find that when more than 3 wires are wound as trifilar or quadfilar, the best efficiency is achieved only in two layer coils. After that impedance goes up so much."

As per your description how your setup was connected,  you used a lamp load at the input in series with the primary electromagnet coils and you also had another load across the secondary output.  Is this correct? 
Now, If in this setup the impedance of the primary coil is increased (due to the more windings of the additional layers) then the total input current taken from the same mains decreases of course.  Is this what you mean on: 'efficiency goes down'?

If yes, then I ask: why did you connect a bank of bulbs in series with the output at all?  If the main reason was you wanted to keep the input current within reasonable bounds, then it may show the primary coils had too low impedance and drew too high input current without the bank of lamps. Is this a correct assumption?

This is my Answer:

Since we do not know when the electromagnet would hold the circuit was set up like this..

Mains live wire -- Primary coil input -- Primary coil output - resistive load - Mains Neutral

Secondary coil - Load.

Now when we wind the trifilar or quadfilar coils only down and up or forward and backward, the voltage loss in the primary load is negligible.

When we have more than that the voltage loss in the primary goes up dramatically.

Amperage at input and load remains the same. Amperage does not decrease with increasing wires. I suspect this is due to the fact that we are giving same load of 10x200 watts lamps. Possibly due to AC impedance increase and the same load requires the same current or amps, amps do not diminish but amps remain the same but the voltage in the primary load decreases.

However when we increase the layers beyond a certain number the coil loses the ability to transmit current to the load. Probably at this level it is safe for us to make the coil as an electromagnet. Since we do not know how to calculate the whether the coil will hold as an electromagnet or not we did this test. It is a kind of blindmans approach to evaluate whether it is safe to connect the electromagnet to the mains. When we do so after this kind of levels the electromagnet holds. Power draw is low. It is certainly not in the less than 1 amp that you mentioned, possibly it applies to enamal coated windings and not for insulated windings. Insulation probably takes some amperage on its own. I really do not know.

By low guage wires I meant indeed thin wires. In India wires used are 0.75 sq mm, 1 sq mm and 1.5 sq mm, 2.5 sq mm, 4 sq mm, 6 sq mm, 10 sq mm, 15 sq mm, 25 sq mm, etc.  How they are classed in other countries I do not know. I meant thin wires.

Can you explain this forumla please..

Z=sqrt(R2+XL2)

Z I believe is the AC impedance. R is DC Resistance L is inductance What is X? What is sqrt.. Is that square root of R squre plus X multiplied by L square. So Z is directly proportional to inductance and dc resistance. Am I right in this simple understanding of the forumla. If DC resistance increases, AC impedance increases and so is inductance of the coil.  This is what you taught me earlier. Is my simple understanding correct.

Your next question:

If yes, then I ask: why did you connect a bank of bulbs in series with the output at all?  If the main reason was you wanted to keep the input current within reasonable bounds, then it may show the primary coils had too low impedance and drew too high input current without the bank of lamps. Is this a correct assumption?

The bulbs were connected in series only to test when the wire is not able to transmit power to the bulb. At that stage it is safe for us to conclude that the electromagnet will remain stable. Crude method of understanding.

I actually did not know as the number of coils increase like bifilar, trifilar, quadfilar etc AC impedance will increase and so by making more number of coils, we can get the elcctromagnet to remain stable at lower number of turns as the AC impedance would increase manifold for multifilar wire coil than for a single wire and so the multifilar coil would be stable electromagnet.

You see in the absence of technical knowledge, we used a common sense approach to determine at 220 volts when the electromagnet would become stable. When it can be safely connected without the fuse blowing up.

But I need to test whether the Ammeter actually shows so much of less amps as you suggest. We have never ever seen any amp in any electromagnet less than 5 amps.

Possibly your calculations based on enamal wires may not directly apply to insulated wires.

It is the thick very thick insulated cables that show a reverse to this line of thinking. But the insulated 3 core wire was only 300 meteres 100x3 meteres and so the insulation could have taken the amps. This is my assumption.

I will get back to you by weekend after completing tests.  Please advise if my assumptions made hereinabove are correct. I'm obliged.