9/11 truth movement topic

[dingbat]

but then they are all just the same bunch of islamofascists who want to kill us right?

Now you've got it.

[d3adp00l]

Alright now your talking ring. The truth movement is more than 9/11 for me.I have not said the admin did it, I have only said that they lied about it. And for me what I have seen, combined with what I know, and compared with people I have worked with know, the building went down due to other reasons. I know we disagree on that point, but I would rather not allow the lives lost be for nothing so a sham can be played on the ignorant american public. And you having your belief would rather not allow someone the "use" the deaths for other purposes. But either way it happened, it did happen, and now our gov has given itself power like never before, and has marched on two sovern nations, and they "use" those deaths as the excuse. If you don't like what we believe because it involves those lost lives, how do you feel about how the gov used them. And then discarded it and as a quote "do really think about that much" george b. . We could argue the point all day, fact is I care about your opinion as much as you proly care for mine, but we end up in the same pot of stew. The world is a mess of political BS and we need to clean our house before we do anything else. Any system that becomes too complicated to be well understood, that has become too cumbursome to change, that has become too powerful as to not be afraid of anything, has, in nature, become malicious and needs to be removed and redesigned, problem is the system has a need to sustain itself, and therefore will fight back for its own survival.

I agree we are in the same pot of stew and i don't think that wanting all those lifes to have meant something is wrong. Not only are we in the same stew the result we seek is the same and equally honorable and patriotic. We both want the truth to be known. However only one of us (me or like thinking, vs so called truth movement) is right. I do care about your and others opinion here. What i care most about that it is truthfull and based on fact. Because if you have to lie and decieve to link any part of 9/11 to the administration, than that makes you (meaning the so called truth movement as a whole) just as bad if you have to use the same mechanisms to obtain victory.

You say they lied about 9/11. Well i'd like to know who and what the lie/lies was? In your opinion not the masses opinion. Are they all based on WTC #7? I really want to get to the bottom of this no matter if the result is that i am wrong. I think i bring some strong arguements to the table that may explain away some of the arguements about the towers and #7's colapses. I'm not posting here as a rant or to oppose all that post here i just want to bring the truth out whichever is the truth. To do that both sides of the argument must be presented and acknowledged and taken into close concideration. It has proven nearly impossible to seporate issues not directly related with the issue of 9/11. So far it seems to go into things that are not directly related to 9/11 like the result of occupying iraq. I know and understand that one is the result of the other but in order to gain victory in both you have to just focus on the events of 9/11. If (and that's a big if in my opinion) it was a inside job than it was only used as premis for bush to again invade iraq. And proof of administrative misconduct of authority.

However the chimps house of cards is allready starting to fall. It is my opinion that he started planning his discretions when his father was president. IMHO! 

Your arguments have a point to be made, however proof of your (collectively refered to after this) theory and our (collectively refered to after this) theory is hard to come by because there was little if any data gathered after the event. Therefore true to political form there is plausable deniability for either side. MY proof for the two towers lies in my construction experience, knowing the floors can be removed while leaving the superstructure to transfer and bear the load, and knowing that buildings are designed to carry 150% estimated load. And knowing heat generated by hydrocarbons (from fuel reseach) and its affect on steel (i am also a welder/fabricator). The same goes for building 7, I have built highrise buildings and have a very good understanding of the locations used for volatile fuels, and the precautions taken to secure them. Those buildings may have been built in the 70s but have been renovationed and subject to newer codes, which makes the fire stopping and 4hr separations subject to newer regulations. The pentagon is simply the fact that there is no evidence of an airplane, even though there are dozens of cameras that could show us if there was, the pent is the most secure building in the world every inch is under camera. And to add to that norad was stood down from intercepting, that is the largest link to the current admin, everything else could be considered conjucture but the link to norad is proof, someone did not allow the jets to intercept. The last plane is again based off the lack of a plane or the major parts of it, as the coronor said, he stopped being one once he got there because there were no bodies. The lies are thick, from the highjackers that are alive, the announcement that building 7 collapsed before it did, the lies of a connection to osama before we attacked, and the lie that it would be investigated thuroughly and yet the investigators themselves say that they were not allowed to do so.

[archon79]

Here is the craziest conspiracy I have ever heard ;

A man living in a cave in Afghanistan was able to send 19 hijackers to America, where at flight school they learned to planes without landing them (while being under surveillance by the FBI), these hijackers then were able to steal 4 planes without any hijack distress signals being given off and then fly for an hour wildly off the normal flight path without anyone noticing.

They were even able to fly over military bases that have restricted airspace, without anyone caring. (The map showing these bases and the planes flight paths are freely available)

Some of the hijackers flew a plane into the pentagon doing a very difficult last minute banking maneuver. This maneuver was recreated by flight students in a simulator and after 10 attempts each none of them could pull it off. The flight instructor failed on his first 9 attempts and finally got it on the 10th try.

We know the leader of the hijackers because we found his passport with a suicide letter in the rubble of the twin towers. But we didn?t find the airplanes black boxes because they were totally destroyed.

[d3adp00l]

@ ring

Bad example??? Thats funny even if they were killing each other 5 years ago, it didn't effect us. It wasn't untill we ousted hussien out of office that the country fell in to civil war. So it sounds like a great example to me...

All those other things you listed have killed more people here, than all US terror events combined (foreign and domestic in source). I care much more about those things than I do killing terrorists. As a matter of fact I would say a war on corporate control, would show us dramaticly better results in the US than the war on terror has. A point I applaud you for making...

Now for your other points. If Iran takes over Iraq how does that effect you. To go even further along this logic, Iran has offered to help us keep the country in check along with China. We refused both based on logic simular to yours. Exept our government was worried about control over the oil, money, and politics not the people.

If we stopped building bases in the middle east do think islamic terrorists would still hate us? If we stopped supporting our own outlandish foreign policy, aka maintaining thousands of world wide bases, and alliences with countries like Isreal and the Vadican, Do you think they would still hate us? If we stopped bombing their brothers sisters mother fathers and children do you think they would still hate us?

Unfortunately at this point theres not much we could do to undo this mess, but if we just stopped poking our noses in other countries affairs, then we wouldn't be a target.

Now you'll undoubtably reply about how blood thirsty and dangerous Iran is...
History is a good way of knowing this is bullshit. While the leader of Iran has publicly stated several times he wanted to whipe Isreal off the map, look at the war records... He's never done it or even came close to doing it. Simply put he, like yourself, believes whiping out a whole race of people would be benificial to the world, but can't convince people like me to give our lives to attempt such a ludicous thing. I think your both crazy though. The bottom line is if Iran is dangerous and bloodthirsty, then by ratio based on history, we are far far worse!

~Dingus Mungus

Ok Dingus the images were a bad example of genoside. Ok they was killing eachother 5-10-15-50-100-1000+ years ago Iran and iraq have been at war since sticks and stones were the weapon of choice. Long before the discovery of oil in the region. Since saddam took power and used his WMD's and he had them prior to the first invasion primarily on iran but he occationally used them on other countries. killing hundreds of thousands of people within iraq and iran. There is no doubt that he got the name of bagdad butcher for some reason. so he was no nice guy to begin with. I supported the first invasion simply because saddam forcefully took kuwait. I mind you that saddam was tried and exicuted by his own people for his crimes against humanity. A fate we could only hope for with the chimp and his accomplices.
Civil war hasn't happened in iraq. the violence your seeing is a result of taking the single stabilizing threat from power. saddam was keeping iran in check. Don't believe for one minute iran is a peace loving kind of people. You keep saying "history" like that is your ace in the hole yet you don't seem to be aware of some of their more haneous acts. Like holding the us embassy hostage. and irans current leader was wanting the americans killed wittnesses or rather hostages of that even will tell you that. Yeah he's crazy, that's another reason why the retoric he spewes is filth. Sure americans are dieing in iraq but all one has to do is listen to abdenijahd to know the source of it. he calls for volenteers for suicide bombers and tells the world he is training them for just that. a week later suicide bombers start attacking civillian targets in iraq are bombed with suicide bombers. but yet i'm the only one that can make that connection?

Sure we destabilized the region by eliminating the threat of saddam. don't fool yourself that iran wants to truly help. Yea they want to help themselfs to iraq's remaining assets and if they are allowed to take part in the rebuilding of iraq in even the smallest manner there is no hope for iraqi's or the religion they follow. it is a holy war in their eye's has been for centuries. to see where the lines are drawn one only needs to see where the religion originated. shiite=Iran. shiia=iraq. that is the struggle that many see as a civil war in iraq. they share the same koran just they interpret it different omitting any checks and balances. thou shalt not kill, turn the other cheek so on. they might only acknowledge an eye for an eye, and smite them.

Much like our debate/arguement it is based on what we believe to be falsehoods and facts. in our arguement about 9/11. you present what you believe to be fact. i dissmiss it and argue it couldn't have occured that way. Ahbdinijad dissmisses the fact that hitler even existed and he oppressed and was attempting genocide. he dissmisses it because it is the grounds that we relocated many jews to israel at the end of hitlers reign. We and most of the world agree that hitler did what he did. Now just like our arguement. one is guaranteed to be right. If ahbdinijad is correct than Most of the world that wittnessed the horrors hitler inflicted didn't happen and that would mean that the administration at the time had a few scandles brewing themselfs. However if history is right and hitler did attempt genocide than ahbdinijad is wrong and one would have to question his motive for wanting to rewrite history which brings us back to israel and the jews relocation and armament. Iran is quite transparent in it's intentions. Have you ever known an iranian? spent time or worked with an iranian? well I have and they are not pleasant or peacefull.

Iran and china wanting to help? I seen the articles and it is not an ernest attempt to help. Iran for one is and this is no lie "the insurgency" of iraq I forseen that as soon as saddam was captured. China probably for promises of oil and other resources has sided with iran. if iran can get control of iraq they will have the resources of iraq. oil for export to china. It wouldn't suprise me in the least if russia jumps on their bandwagon also offering help lul the so called civil war in iraq which equates to jihad.

Sure if our forefathers hadn't meddled in the region we wouldn't be a target today but the current administration had nothing to do with that. However bush has yet again stirred up tension in the region adding a mix of lies and bring additional dishonor as a wedge bieng used to furthur isolate us from the world even if only in the eye's of world opinion.

"If Iran takes over Iraq how does that effect you." Drasticly reduces world opinion of the US and threatens everything that we have worked for since we declared independence. we will forever be viewed as weak, fat, and lazy and on top of it we will be a prime target of terrorist attacks. the internal government will become a militant state we will be stripped of liberties. if iran get hold of iraq All our sons and daughters that served our country so valiantly will be tried for war crimes and probably exicuted. They will makeup lies and propaganda stating they found mass graves of iraqi's murdered by our military while we occupied iraq In reality the mass graves will be a result of irans own designs of genocide. and due to our at the time very low world opinion they will be believed and furthur devistate our world opinion. trade embargo's. economic sanctions and probably the stripping of our right to have and maintain a nuclear arsonal will follow shortly. I cannot re-inforce the importance of staying the course even if it was not the correct or moral thing to do by invading. Iraqi's MUST be capable of defending their own country against an invasion.

I don't care if that means we stay for the next 20 years and train iraqi's how to rebuild thier government, country, and military. as well as how to refine and market their resources creating jobs and an economy that will support themselfs. If we pull out now we condemn the iraqi's people to death. Sure it would be easier to throw them to the wolf's. but in this case the repricussions would be world wide but focally pointed at us.

So by all means unjustly accuse the government of staging the 9/11 attacks. Don't forget to discrace us just a little more so we can never repair the damage that one rogue administration has allready did.

Two things may spare us. 
#1 a revolution before bush leaves office. Showing the world that we as a united peoples disagree with what bush did and how he did it.
#2 we stay the course in iraq. showing the world that we do care and our willingness to repair damages caused by the bush administration.

Israel stand steadfast! Do not give in. you will be cut off from trade routes isolating yourself from the industrial world. and yet more of your god given land will be again taken. however they will also again face genocide if they do agree.     

Sorry ring WMD were not found and there is no evidence of them, therefore not a fact, the admin has flat out said that there are no wmds. And he was tried by the people in power that we have helped to be in power, so I have my doubts. Was he a good guy or a bad guy I honestly have no opinion because I have no solid evidence of either. But I do have evidence of our gov meeting with him and helping him in the past. And as far as the current violence in iraq, if someone bombed my country, regardless of its leader, if someone hurt my family, like what has been done there , I would be pretty mad myself and would more than likely be acting the same way they are. So the people of that area being in a fight really isn't indicative of any one sources influence in my opinion. I really don't know that we have the right to show anyone anything about government and how it should be done. That is the people of that nations choice, not ours, someone should ask them what they want. As a sovern nation they should do what they want, if saddam was a threat, well we took care of that, now its time for them to decide and act. And yes I am sure that I will hear the comments, well the strongest military leader would then just take his place, and our retort to that should be if you do what he did then we will be back, if you do right by your people and nation, good for you. Every form of governmant can be twisted for the wrong purpose, and every government can do a great service for its people, yes I mean all forms can be used for good and evil, just like a gun. It can defend and feed you, but it can also be used against you and against others.

[ring_theory]

@d3adp00l

your not reading for content. I'm not saying he has and was found with WMD. I'm saying he had WMD's and Used them in the past. I don't think your observations of the iraqi's reaction to our presence and ousting of saddam. they are and were joyfull that we did that. the mindset of we are over there just bombing and attacking the general public would be incorrect. we are currently helping to train iraqi's to take control of their country they have not met benchmarks of accomplisments in fact they barely could get a constitution put together in required time frame. so the iraqi's are dropping the ball on meeting criteria. You can't say "if someone bombed my country" because you cannot walk a mile in their shoes. we got it good here and find it real hard to understand that other countries you could be punished by death for speaking against the govt. lined up and shot for simply following the wrong faith. Have little or no human rights. many of the things some take for granted and others fight hard to keep and maintain. just are not known or enjoyed under some rulers. Saddam was one of those rulers.

"I really don't know that we have the right to show anyone anything about government and how it should be done. That is the people of that nations choice, not ours, someone should ask them what they want. As a sovern nation they should do what they want, if saddam was a threat, well we took care of that, now its time for them to decide and act. And yes I am sure that I will hear the comments, well the strongest military leader would then just take his place, and our retort to that should be if you do what he did then we will be back, if you do right by your people and nation, good for you. Every form of governmant can be twisted for the wrong purpose, and every government can do a great service for its people, yes I mean all forms can be used for good and evil, just like a gun. It can defend and feed you, but it can also be used against you and against others."

Your right it is a question of showing them the basics and who say's we are the best example of them. They are a young country just taking baby steps at freedom they will need more time.

Here's the comment you probably didn't expect, great idea! say here, here's the country defend it and honor it Mess up and we will return at the peoples request and go saddam on your butt. coordinate a 500,000 troop display of power for a few days as a show that even though the world thinks we are weak and spread too thin that we can assemble a sizeable force in a short time and then bug out leaving only the memories.