9/11 truth movement topic

[ring_theory]

Alright now your talking ring. The truth movement is more than 9/11 for me.I have not said the admin did it, I have only said that they lied about it. And for me what I have seen, combined with what I know, and compared with people I have worked with know, the building went down due to other reasons. I know we disagree on that point, but I would rather not allow the lives lost be for nothing so a sham can be played on the ignorant american public. And you having your belief would rather not allow someone the "use" the deaths for other purposes. But either way it happened, it did happen, and now our gov has given itself power like never before, and has marched on two sovern nations, and they "use" those deaths as the excuse. If you don't like what we believe because it involves those lost lives, how do you feel about how the gov used them. And then discarded it and as a quote "do really think about that much" george b. . We could argue the point all day, fact is I care about your opinion as much as you proly care for mine, but we end up in the same pot of stew. The world is a mess of political BS and we need to clean our house before we do anything else. Any system that becomes too complicated to be well understood, that has become too cumbursome to change, that has become too powerful as to not be afraid of anything, has, in nature, become malicious and needs to be removed and redesigned, problem is the system has a need to sustain itself, and therefore will fight back for its own survival.

I agree we are in the same pot of stew and i don't think that wanting all those lifes to have meant something is wrong. Not only are we in the same stew the result we seek is the same and equally honorable and patriotic. We both want the truth to be known. However only one of us (me or like thinking, vs so called truth movement) is right. I do care about your and others opinion here. What i care most about that it is truthfull and based on fact. Because if you have to lie and decieve to link any part of 9/11 to the administration, than that makes you (meaning the so called truth movement as a whole) just as bad if you have to use the same mechanisms to obtain victory.

You say they lied about 9/11. Well i'd like to know who and what the lie/lies was? In your opinion not the masses opinion. Are they all based on WTC #7? I really want to get to the bottom of this no matter if the result is that i am wrong. I think i bring some strong arguements to the table that may explain away some of the arguements about the towers and #7's colapses. I'm not posting here as a rant or to oppose all that post here i just want to bring the truth out whichever is the truth. To do that both sides of the argument must be presented and acknowledged and taken into close concideration. It has proven nearly impossible to seporate issues not directly related with the issue of 9/11. So far it seems to go into things that are not directly related to 9/11 like the result of occupying iraq. I know and understand that one is the result of the other but in order to gain victory in both you have to just focus on the events of 9/11. If (and that's a big if in my opinion) it was a inside job than it was only used as premis for bush to again invade iraq. And proof of administrative misconduct of authority.

However the chimps house of cards is allready starting to fall. It is my opinion that he started planning his discretions when his father was president. IMHO! 

[ring_theory]

@ ring

Bad example??? Thats funny even if they were killing each other 5 years ago, it didn't effect us. It wasn't untill we ousted hussien out of office that the country fell in to civil war. So it sounds like a great example to me...

All those other things you listed have killed more people here, than all US terror events combined (foreign and domestic in source). I care much more about those things than I do killing terrorists. As a matter of fact I would say a war on corporate control, would show us dramaticly better results in the US than the war on terror has. A point I applaud you for making...

Now for your other points. If Iran takes over Iraq how does that effect you. To go even further along this logic, Iran has offered to help us keep the country in check along with China. We refused both based on logic simular to yours. Exept our government was worried about control over the oil, money, and politics not the people.

If we stopped building bases in the middle east do think islamic terrorists would still hate us? If we stopped supporting our own outlandish foreign policy, aka maintaining thousands of world wide bases, and alliences with countries like Isreal and the Vadican, Do you think they would still hate us? If we stopped bombing their brothers sisters mother fathers and children do you think they would still hate us?

Unfortunately at this point theres not much we could do to undo this mess, but if we just stopped poking our noses in other countries affairs, then we wouldn't be a target.

Now you'll undoubtably reply about how blood thirsty and dangerous Iran is...
History is a good way of knowing this is bullshit. While the leader of Iran has publicly stated several times he wanted to whipe Isreal off the map, look at the war records... He's never done it or even came close to doing it. Simply put he, like yourself, believes whiping out a whole race of people would be benificial to the world, but can't convince people like me to give our lives to attempt such a ludicous thing. I think your both crazy though. The bottom line is if Iran is dangerous and bloodthirsty, then by ratio based on history, we are far far worse!

~Dingus Mungus

Ok Dingus the images were a bad example of genoside. Ok they was killing eachother 5-10-15-50-100-1000+ years ago Iran and iraq have been at war since sticks and stones were the weapon of choice. Long before the discovery of oil in the region. Since saddam took power and used his WMD's and he had them prior to the first invasion primarily on iran but he occationally used them on other countries. killing hundreds of thousands of people within iraq and iran. There is no doubt that he got the name of bagdad butcher for some reason. so he was no nice guy to begin with. I supported the first invasion simply because saddam forcefully took kuwait. I mind you that saddam was tried and exicuted by his own people for his crimes against humanity. A fate we could only hope for with the chimp and his accomplices.
Civil war hasn't happened in iraq. the violence your seeing is a result of taking the single stabilizing threat from power. saddam was keeping iran in check. Don't believe for one minute iran is a peace loving kind of people. You keep saying "history" like that is your ace in the hole yet you don't seem to be aware of some of their more haneous acts. Like holding the us embassy hostage. and irans current leader was wanting the americans killed wittnesses or rather hostages of that even will tell you that. Yeah he's crazy, that's another reason why the retoric he spewes is filth. Sure americans are dieing in iraq but all one has to do is listen to abdenijahd to know the source of it. he calls for volenteers for suicide bombers and tells the world he is training them for just that. a week later suicide bombers start attacking civillian targets in iraq are bombed with suicide bombers. but yet i'm the only one that can make that connection?

Sure we destabilized the region by eliminating the threat of saddam. don't fool yourself that iran wants to truly help. Yea they want to help themselfs to iraq's remaining assets and if they are allowed to take part in the rebuilding of iraq in even the smallest manner there is no hope for iraqi's or the religion they follow. it is a holy war in their eye's has been for centuries. to see where the lines are drawn one only needs to see where the religion originated. shiite=Iran. shiia=iraq. that is the struggle that many see as a civil war in iraq. they share the same koran just they interpret it different omitting any checks and balances. thou shalt not kill, turn the other cheek so on. they might only acknowledge an eye for an eye, and smite them.

Much like our debate/arguement it is based on what we believe to be falsehoods and facts. in our arguement about 9/11. you present what you believe to be fact. i dissmiss it and argue it couldn't have occured that way. Ahbdinijad dissmisses the fact that hitler even existed and he oppressed and was attempting genocide. he dissmisses it because it is the grounds that we relocated many jews to israel at the end of hitlers reign. We and most of the world agree that hitler did what he did. Now just like our arguement. one is guaranteed to be right. If ahbdinijad is correct than Most of the world that wittnessed the horrors hitler inflicted didn't happen and that would mean that the administration at the time had a few scandles brewing themselfs. However if history is right and hitler did attempt genocide than ahbdinijad is wrong and one would have to question his motive for wanting to rewrite history which brings us back to israel and the jews relocation and armament. Iran is quite transparent in it's intentions. Have you ever known an iranian? spent time or worked with an iranian? well I have and they are not pleasant or peacefull.

Iran and china wanting to help? I seen the articles and it is not an ernest attempt to help. Iran for one is and this is no lie "the insurgency" of iraq I forseen that as soon as saddam was captured. China probably for promises of oil and other resources has sided with iran. if iran can get control of iraq they will have the resources of iraq. oil for export to china. It wouldn't suprise me in the least if russia jumps on their bandwagon also offering help lul the so called civil war in iraq which equates to jihad.

Sure if our forefathers hadn't meddled in the region we wouldn't be a target today but the current administration had nothing to do with that. However bush has yet again stirred up tension in the region adding a mix of lies and bring additional dishonor as a wedge bieng used to furthur isolate us from the world even if only in the eye's of world opinion.

"If Iran takes over Iraq how does that effect you." Drasticly reduces world opinion of the US and threatens everything that we have worked for since we declared independence. we will forever be viewed as weak, fat, and lazy and on top of it we will be a prime target of terrorist attacks. the internal government will become a militant state we will be stripped of liberties. if iran get hold of iraq All our sons and daughters that served our country so valiantly will be tried for war crimes and probably exicuted. They will makeup lies and propaganda stating they found mass graves of iraqi's murdered by our military while we occupied iraq In reality the mass graves will be a result of irans own designs of genocide. and due to our at the time very low world opinion they will be believed and furthur devistate our world opinion. trade embargo's. economic sanctions and probably the stripping of our right to have and maintain a nuclear arsonal will follow shortly. I cannot re-inforce the importance of staying the course even if it was not the correct or moral thing to do by invading. Iraqi's MUST be capable of defending their own country against an invasion.

I don't care if that means we stay for the next 20 years and train iraqi's how to rebuild thier government, country, and military. as well as how to refine and market their resources creating jobs and an economy that will support themselfs. If we pull out now we condemn the iraqi's people to death. Sure it would be easier to throw them to the wolf's. but in this case the repricussions would be world wide but focally pointed at us.

So by all means unjustly accuse the government of staging the 9/11 attacks. Don't forget to discrace us just a little more so we can never repair the damage that one rogue administration has allready did.

Two things may spare us. 
#1 a revolution before bush leaves office. Showing the world that we as a united peoples disagree with what bush did and how he did it.
#2 we stay the course in iraq. showing the world that we do care and our willingness to repair damages caused by the bush administration.

Israel stand steadfast! Do not give in. you will be cut off from trade routes isolating yourself from the industrial world. and yet more of your god given land will be again taken. however they will also again face genocide if they do agree.     

[archon79]

Don't believe for one minute iran is a peace loving kind of people. You keep saying "history" like that is your ace in the hole yet you don't seem to be aware of some of their more haneous acts. Like holding the us embassy hostage. and irans current leader was wanting the americans killed wittnesses or rather hostages of that even will tell you that. Yeah he's crazy, that's another reason why the retoric he spewes is filth. Sure americans are dieing in iraq but all one has to do is listen to abdenijahd to know the source of it. he calls for volenteers for suicide bombers and tells the world he is training them for just that. a week later suicide bombers start attacking civillian targets in iraq are bombed with suicide bombers. but yet i'm the only one that can make that connection?

You are utterly ignorant of 'History' and the West's relationship with Iran so here is a basic timeline.

In 1953 the newly elected President of Iran was overthrown by a CIA coup. The reason why? One of his election promises was to demand a small share of the oil revenues the western companies (mainly British) were recieving, and giving nothing in return.

The now declassified documents show the CIA and British intelligence services engaged in bombings, shootings and riots while arming militia groups to kill and cause chaos. STATE SPONSORED TERRORISM, but because it was done by us we never call it that.

After overthrowing their democratically elected president we installed the Shah of Iran who for the next 25 years ruled Iran like a brutal police state exactly like Saddam Hussain. Beatings, murder, torture, people disappearing of the streets, no political or religious freedom whatsoever.

For all those 25 years we feated the Shah like he was our best friend and supported him 100 % in his repression of his people. We even sold him f-14 fighter planes and gave the Iranians nuclear technology.

In 1979 the Shah fell to the islamic revolution and the Iranian students took the hostages at the embassy, and the religious extremists started the 'Death to America' chants. the American public woke up from a deep slumber asking "Why, why do they hate us?" "We have not done anything to these hateful Iranians!"

Typical westerners ignorant of the pain and death our foreign policy meddling had caused other people.

But it was not enough, we needed some payback real bad, so in 1980 we sold Saddam a huge amount of weapons and encouraged him to attack Iran, capture their oilfields. "it will be a cakewalk"
8 years later and millions of people dead, the war ground to standstill. The Iranian economy was runined, millions of businesses destroyed, hardship and poverty commonplace.

To paraphrase Ron Paul, the question is not "Why do the Iranian's hate us" but "Why woudln't they hate us?"

If you think our western rulers really care about democracy and making the lives of the brown skinned people better you are delusional fool. We only care about having subservient minions who give us whatever we want, like the current dictators we support in

Pakistan (military coup overthrew the government years ago),
Egypt (military government which allows elections to a parliament which holds no power)
Jordan (no elections, police state)
Saudi Arabia (no elections, a police state that sometimes makes Saddam looks tame)
Kuwait (no election, a police state)

You never hear the mainstream media screaming blue murder about those countries listed above, because they are our allies.

As for Ahmadinejad, the president of Iran is a symbolic position that holds no real power whatsoever. Any half serious analyst of the middle east will tell you so, but it suits the current western propaganda to imagine him as having his fingers on the buttons, a premise that is completely detached from reality.

Please show us your source where you claim that Ahmadinejad has called for suicide bombers and trained them to send to Iraq. I think you are mistaking him for another person called Osama Bin Laden, but then they are all just the same bunch of islamofascists who want to kill us right?

[Dingus Mungus]

Ok Dingus the images were a bad example of genoside. Ok they was killing eachother 5-10-15-50-100-1000+ years ago Iran and iraq have been at war since sticks and stones were the weapon of choice. Long before the discovery of oil in the region.

I fully agree, so why are we spending our tax dollars trying to stabilize it? OIL! You agree, its obvious in your reply. This is one of the reasons they target us.

Since saddam took power and used his WMD's and he had them prior to the first invasion primarily on iran but he occationally used them on other countries. killing hundreds of thousands of people within iraq and iran. There is no doubt that he got the name of bagdad butcher for some reason. so he was no nice guy to begin with. I supported the first invasion simply because saddam forcefully took kuwait.

Firstly WE gave him the WMD's he used!!! For the purpose of killing Iranians! Go figure! Kinda like we gave Osama 10billion in funds, training and weapons to kill the russians. When Saddam missused them by invading Kuwait (oil?) thats when we put a cap on his weapons. I left out the kurds because he had been killing them for years and we didn't intervine, it wasn't untill "forces and tanks were amassing on Kuwaits border according to satalite photos" that we invaded. We all ready had two carriers in the region! He has since been complying with UN procedures and resolutions to the best of his abilities afterall in 2002 "most of the sites were unmanned and locked up" as reported by the UN. He hadn't used any real weapons to kill anyone in 15 years! (unless you think a skud is a real weapon)

I mind you that saddam was tried and exicuted by his own people for his crimes against humanity. A fate we could only hope for with the chimp and his accomplices.

More like treason. For knowingly aiding an enemy in time of war.

Civil war hasn't happened in iraq. the violence your seeing is a result of taking the single stabilizing threat from power. saddam was keeping iran in check. Don't believe for one minute iran is a peace loving kind of people. You keep saying "history" like that is your ace in the hole yet you don't seem to be aware of some of their more haneous acts. Like holding the us embassy hostage.

LMAO! You mean October Surprise right? Bush Sr? LOL! That tickles me.

and irans current leader was wanting the americans killed wittnesses or rather hostages of that even will tell you that. Yeah he's crazy, that's another reason why the retoric he spewes is filth.

Wanting them killed and killing them are two sepperate issues. It's not a question of why did he kill those hostages, its a question of why would he want to? As for his religious filth, you don't have to listen to it. It's not like you care about the people there, and its pretty clear "when we muck about over there they come to kill us here". Which is radicly different than the current belief which is "We fight them over there so we dont have to fight them here." If people could just see through that one little piece of double think bullshit, we could weed out the cells or groups, but one thing is for sure untill we made a political presence there they never attacked us here. Perhaps its time to try something new. (actually its quite old. Our "founding fathers" refered to it as non intervention)

Sure americans are dieing in iraq but all one has to do is listen to abdenijahd to know the source of it. he calls for volenteers for suicide bombers and tells the world he is training them for just that. a week later suicide bombers start attacking civillian targets in iraq are bombed with suicide bombers. but yet i'm the only one that can make that connection?

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=iran+kills+americans&um=1&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&filter=0&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=w&as_mind=20&as_minm=7&as_maxd=27&as_maxm=7

Yeah according to the press its an all Irans effort now... Just like Iraq was a threat... So you think we should launch a pre-emptive attact on Iran then I assume?

You're right that they are religious and crazy, for the sake of arguement lets assume ten percent of them would be willing to blow themselves up. Then why in world do you want to send our boys and dollars there? Thats the stupided god damn thing I've ever heard. I would say this is a good time to let the region restabilize without our intervention and preferably monetary assistance outside of trade. First we said he had WMD's, negitive. Then we said he had ties to Osama, nope... Then we said the goal was to liberate Iraq, Check. Then it was government and constitution, done and done. AND now its stay the course. Do you see the problem there? The course is a very long term war in multible countries... Another interesting tactic to use history as a guide to.

Sure we destabilized the region by eliminating the threat of saddam. don't fool yourself that iran wants to truly help. Yea they want to help themselfs to iraq's remaining assets and if they are allowed to take part in the rebuilding of iraq in even the smallest manner there is no hope for iraqi's or the religion they follow. it is a holy war in their eye's has been for centuries.

Once again this does not mean we are better off for interfering. "Yea they want to help themselfs to iraq's remaining assets and if they are allowed to take part in the rebuilding of iraq in even the smallest manner there is no hope for iraqi's or the religion they follow." Yeah right. What are we doing there again? Do you really believe the Iranians would kill followers of the koran in Iraq? Thats again ludicus media double speak. Think this out with me. We have to stay there and kill them both because if we don't they'll kill each other.

to see where the lines are drawn one only needs to see where the religion originated. shiite=Iran. shiia=iraq. that is the struggle that many see as a civil war in iraq. they share the same koran just they interpret it different omitting any checks and balances. thou shalt not kill, turn the other cheek so on. they might only acknowledge an eye for an eye, and smite them.

Not exactly true...
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060926034306AAswmxj
Yeah I know thats not a good source, but the poster sites sources.

Much like our debate/arguement it is based on what we believe to be falsehoods and facts. in our arguement about 9/11. you present what you believe to be fact. i dissmiss it and argue it couldn't have occured that way.

Not molten steel or they wouldn't denie its existance now would they? Also WTC7 has many other factors that make the official story or lack thereof a big problem and at least grounds for a new independent reopening of the investigation. You may be right that it was Islamic extreamists, but why didn't norad have escorts on the planes especially the pentagon plane.

Ahbdinijad dissmisses the fact that hitler even existed and he oppressed and was attempting genocide. he dissmisses it because it is the grounds that we relocated many jews to israel at the end of hitlers reign. We and most of the world agree that hitler did what he did. Now just like our arguement. one is guaranteed to be right. If ahbdinijad is correct than Most of the world that wittnessed the horrors hitler inflicted didn't happen and that would mean that the administration at the time had a few scandles brewing themselfs. However if history is right and hitler did attempt genocide than ahbdinijad is wrong and one would have to question his motive for wanting to rewrite history which brings us back to israel and the jews relocation and armament. Iran is quite transparent in it's intentions.

He's made that quite clear, and I don't doubt him, but why are we dieing, and how successful has he been in his aspirations? I'm quite certain Isreal can take care of themselves and that Iran would no longer be focussed on us if we weren't there. My bottom line with the middle east is trade, thats it, no more no less. Gas is at an all time high, the region is engulfed in chaos unlike ever before. Maybe its time we back off before we over extend ourselves and make one too many enemies.

Have you ever known an iranian? spent time or worked with an iranian? well I have and they are not pleasant or peacefull.

This post was going so well... ALL Iranians are not pleasant or peacefull?
http://www.flickr.com/groups/iranianbeauty/pool/
http://www.commondreams.org/news2007/0712-04.htm
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/3/C0F677FE-DA4B-440C-9AA6-C0F65ECF2096.html

***http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17049526/site/newsweek/***

Iran and china wanting to help? I seen the articles and it is not an ernest attempt to help. Iran for one is and this is no lie "the insurgency" of iraq I forseen that as soon as saddam was captured. China probably for promises of oil and other resources has sided with iran. if iran can get control of iraq they will have the resources of iraq. oil for export to china. It wouldn't suprise me in the least if russia jumps on their bandwagon also offering help lul the so called civil war in iraq which equates to jihad.

Once again though, you're desribing what the US and the UK is doing.

Sure if our forefathers hadn't meddled in the region we wouldn't be a target today but the current administration had nothing to do with that. However bush has yet again stirred up tension in the region adding a mix of lies and bring additional dishonor as a wedge bieng used to furthur isolate us from the world even if only in the eye's of world opinion.

Our forefathers? You don't mean our founding fathers I hope... We've only been involved since the discovery of oil in the region, and then only militarily since the mid 40's.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-159.html - good article

"If Iran takes over Iraq how does that effect you." Drasticly reduces world opinion of the US and threatens everything that we have worked for since we declared independence. we will forever be viewed as weak, fat, and lazy and on top of it we will be a prime target of terrorist attacks.

I think the opposite. To forcably convert the middle east to any form of government is wrong, and will only increase the threat to our country, and polls clearly show the world thinks a great deal less of us due to the invasion in the first place. Go look around no one internationally thinks were "the good guys" except the UK.

the internal government will become a militant state we will be stripped of liberties.

I think you mean "they'll be stripped of their liberties", but if you did mean us, then open your eyes its already happening. Meantime "they'll" die in the streets. We can't fix this civil war, its not our fight unless we make it ours, and that what is happening. The fight will eventually come here in war planes and not jet liners. Occuping the most chaotic region in the world is not good policy.

if iran get hold of iraq All our sons and daughters that served our country so valiantly will be tried for war crimes and probably exicuted. They will makeup lies and propaganda stating they found mass graves of iraqi's murdered by our military while we occupied iraq.

There was a discovered mass grave in Falluja pre Iran media blitz. White phosphorus killed every living thing it touched. We tossed roughly 400 bodies in to one big hole.
http://www.thehindu.com/2004/12/21/stories/2004122104311200.htm

In reality the mass graves will be a result of irans own designs of genocide. and due to our at the time very low world opinion they will be believed and furthur devistate our world opinion. trade embargo's. economic sanctions and probably the stripping of our right to have and maintain a nuclear arsonal will follow shortly. I cannot re-inforce the importance of staying the course even if it was not the correct or moral thing to do by invading. Iraqi's MUST be capable of defending their own country against an invasion.

You're missing the catch 22 of that statement. If the Iraqis we militarily sovereign, a large portion of them would be killing us for killing so many of them. We're taking guns over there not handing them out. Get real!

I don't care if that means we stay for the next 20 years and train iraqi's how to rebuild thier government, country, and military. as well as how to refine and market their resources creating jobs and an economy that will support themselfs. If we pull out now we condemn the iraqi's people to death. Sure it would be easier to throw them to the wolf's. but in this case the repricussions would be world wide but focally pointed at us.

But staying there and killing people, losing soldiers, indentured servitude via oil trade will make us look good!

So by all means unjustly accuse the government of staging the 9/11 attacks. Don't forget to discrace us just a little more so we can never repair the damage that one rogue administration has allready did.

Thats who we're accusing. Not the US citizens just the current leaders.

Two things may spare us. 
#1 a revolution before bush leaves office. Showing the world that we as a united peoples disagree with what bush did and how he did it.
(FULLY AGREE)
#2 we stay the course in iraq. showing the world that we do care and our willingness to repair damages caused by the bush administration.
(WILL ONLY MAKE US A BIGGER TARGET OVER TIME)
Israel stand steadfast! Do not give in. you will be cut off from trade routes isolating yourself from the industrial world. and yet more of your god given land will be again taken. however they will also again face genocide if they do agree.     
(Are you calling the Isreali millitary or economy weak?)

Remember those pics I posted those people had families and some of them are wacky extreamists, every person we kill there, we risk unleasing a more dangerous terrorist threat than we have ever seen before.

~Dingus Mungus

P.S. The length is getting crazy now. Can we go back to 1-2 paragraphs maybe 3-4 tops.

[Dingus Mungus]

Bravo Archon!

Check out http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-159.html if you get the chance. It covers everyone of our millitary encounters with Iran, along with the political backstory. Great post!

~Dingus Mungus

P.S. I think we should all drop this OFF TOPIC stuff. It appears the thread has diverged and I don't want to see this threrad get deleted because its no longer even about 9-11, as I suspect the situation will become.