9/11 truth movement topic

[shruggedatlas]

Has this article from The Guardian been discussed here before? I have just read it and I am impressed this appeared in a Mains Stream Media. Wow.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/peter_tatchell/2007/09/911_the_big_coverup.html

It is a reasonable article, and if the truth movement took a stance similar to the author's, it may get a little more traction.  But frankly, I do not see what can really be done to appease the skeptics.  If we do another investigation, as the author suggests, the skeptics will not trust it anyway.

The way I see it, in any major event like 9/11, there are going to be holes.  Those who want to fill those holes with a sinister plot will always do this, and no amount of evidence will plug every hole.  This can and has been done with many other events, including Pearl Harbor, the Holocaust, JFK, you name it.

There is a saying that goes something like, "Do not automatically attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence."  There is truth in this saying, and I think the burden at this point is on the skeptics to produce actual evidence of a conspiracy from some insiders.

Now, I am not talking about planes that look funny from a certain angle or puffs of air coming out of buildings or arguments over temperature at which steel melts versus being weakened or the sizes of impact craters or lacks of plane parts in certain areas or other stuff that could be and has been interpreted multiple ways.  I am referring to actually getting someone credible to talk and having their story corroborated.  If this can be done convcincingly, you cannot tell me that the news channels would not jump all over it.  If you do not trust the US media, the world media would certainly not fear to carry the story.

[shruggedatlas]

Another thing I was wondering.  If this was all a plot, wouldn't just taking down the two towers be enough to incite war or whatever the plotters wanted?  Why did we need the other two planes?  When doing a crazy risky plot like this, wouldn't it be smart to keep it down to as few planes as necessary?

The essence of the conspiracy theory actually removes some of the obvious answers to this.  For example, you can argue that the plotters did not know if the planes would be enough to bring the towers down.  Does not matter - buildings were set to explode.

Maybe the plotters did not know if they could effectively hijack those planes?  Please, this is not 5 guys with boxcutters we are talking about.  This is a CIA operation - I am sure they had guns.  Or wait, those were not planes, those were missiles, and we can hit something the size of an AC vent, so hitting the broadside of a building is no problem.

[Elvis Oswald]

Shruggedatlas:

You do a good job beating a straw man.    And you also make a good argument for apathy.  Many posts in just 3 short months... and all I see are skeptical posts.  Are you just here to discourage discussion on certain topics?  I would think you would have more to do in life than that.
Nice picture too.  Hard for most "geeks" to argue with a pretty woman.  Perhaps you are a Jewish Tokyo Rose?

Those are my observations... not personal attacks.  I don't know you.  But if serious discussion is what you want - then let's start with this...

There are many theories about what happened on 9/11... and some are crazy... but why talk about the crazy ones?
Let's talk about the official story.  Because that is what this all comes down to.

There is no evidence for the official story.  And that's the issue.  Accepting the official story makes as much sense as accepting a theory about "death rays."

Where are the videos of Atta and others boarding the planes?
The only tape we see is of Atta catching the first flight... not the flight he hijacked.
Where are the others?

Why were the names of the hijackers not on the passenger list??
If that doesn't matter... then how did the US governement know who did it?
No video of them boarding... no names on the passenger list.... how did they know?
DIdn't they say that there were credit card records of ticket purchases?  You need an ID to fly... you needed one then... an ID that matched the ticket.  How does that work?

If there were no passengers with these names... and no video of these men boarding... and at least 9 of them are still alive... then how in the hell can the official story be right???

It is not we who have to prove our theories of what happened.  At this point we only need to prove that the official story could not have happened.  then, when honest people have access to the evidence... we can determine how it happened and who was involved.

So defend the official story - or leave. 

[shruggedatlas]

Shruggedatlas:

You do a good job beating a straw man.    And you also make a good argument for apathy.  Many posts in just 3 short months... and all I see are skeptical posts.  Are you just here to discourage discussion on certain topics?  I would think you would have more to do in life than that.
Nice picture too.  Hard for most "geeks" to argue with a pretty woman.  Perhaps you are a Jewish Tokyo Rose?

Those are my observations... not personal attacks.  I don't know you.  But if serious discussion is what you want - then let's start with this...

There are many theories about what happened on 9/11... and some are crazy... but why talk about the crazy ones?
Let's talk about the official story.  Because that is what this all comes down to.

There is no evidence for the official story.  And that's the issue.  Accepting the official story makes as much sense as accepting a theory about "death rays."

Where are the videos of Atta and others boarding the planes?
The only tape we see is of Atta catching the first flight... not the flight he hijacked.
Where are the others?

Why were the names of the hijackers not on the passenger list??
If that doesn't matter... then how did the US governement know who did it?
No video of them boarding... no names on the passenger list.... how did they know?
DIdn't they say that there were credit card records of ticket purchases?  You need an ID to fly... you needed one then... an ID that matched the ticket.  How does that work?

If there were no passengers with these names... and no video of these men boarding... and at least 9 of them are still alive... then how in the hell can the official story be right???

It is not we who have to prove our theories of what happened.  At this point we only need to prove that the official story could not have happened.  then, when honest people have access to the evidence... we can determine how it happened and who was involved.

So defend the official story - or leave. 

I was attacking the theories presented here.  It is not my fault they are weak.  People are saying there were no planes - not that the planes were not piloted by hijackers, but that no planes hit WTC.

On to your points.

Why should there be a video of Atta entering the plane?  Are there cameras pointed at the plane door?

Regarding the passenger lists - many news agencies posted lists of victims, and of course the hijackers were not on those lists, because they are not considered victims.  Do not confuse these with official manifests, which did in fact contain the names of the hijackers and their assigned seats.

And if you can tell me exactly which version of the "truth" you are a proponent of, I would be happy to tear down your theory in particular.

[Prophmaji]

I have voted to delete this thread and never allow such threads here at all. I myself have indulged in some minor bits of semi-political ranting, but it is best to keep such thoughts to one's self. due to the nature of this forum, every single participant is on a watch list.

I have a friend, for example, that his father lived by that axiom. His entire family line was wiped out by the russians after the second world war. About 250 people. His father was the LAST person with his family name, when they escaped. Think about that. This stuff is dead serious.

The average human being in the western world..has a minimum 20 open files on them in terms of overall profiling.

The more illustrious members of saidÃ,  scocietal structure have over 100 files.

Members of this forum have people actively profiling them. And they are on many a watch list.

Stop being idiots and giving them more material on you.

This is not a joke, these thnigs can be researched and they do indeed exist. You, due to your connectivity to this specific forum, are quite expensive to western governments. There are people engaged in actively watching you. True, many aspects are relatively passive, but your words on this forum and specifically on threads that reveal your given political and specifically activity stance or willingness to engage in actual activity verses passive forum posting and arguement..that is all being profiled, in a very serious way.

Get real and get the hell out of this thread and shut it down.

Stop giving the agencies of the given governments more information and ammunition to work aginst you.

8 years ago, 75% of all international calls to and from the US and US internet data flowed through and was analysed by one single computer complex in the Viginia state area.

Imagine how it is now. The profiling is software based and it is good and it is very active.

So shut your mouths and get the hell out of this thread and keep it to yourself or among friends.

It is up to you to decide such, of course. Just be aware of the implications. I think activism is important, as the corporate media is telling everyone 'things are fine, things are ok, the internet must be shut down and completely controlled due to the vast amount of kiddie porography'..when it constitutes about 0.00000000001% or less of all internet data traffic.Ã, 

You've got hundreds of reporters who've been fired and the most persistent have been killed. You've got hundreds of politicians and even heads of military fighting this giant thing,and they can't even get the word out. Six journalists where specifially targeted and killed in Iraq the other day, for example.

You can go to almost anyone on the streets in the west today..and engage in a casual conversation about these issues and ..THEY ARE AWARE.

This is a HUGE change from a few years back.

This is a clear indication that it has to be done the old fashion way.

Get the hell off this forum, and take it to the streets. Like people always find out in the end. If you don't get off your ass and risk that ass directly, nothing happens.

You must literally stand up physically and verbally..and publically for what you believe.

I walk the walk.

What do YOU do?