UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......

[TinselKoala]

It looks to me like UFOPolitics needs some good advice about measuring current in a complex signal using an oscilloscope. Unfortunately..... especially since he made that last statement about needing to measure on the high (positive) side of the load, mistakenly interpreting the Kyoritsu manual...... it looks like there's a lot of faulty baggage that needs to be unloaded, before he can take the correct material on board.

He has got to be able to acknowledge that some of his conceptions are faulty, and he's got to be able to take advice from those with more experience and knowledge than he has in this area. And that is going to be a problem, since he apparently thinks he knows all he needs to know already.

The material here on current measurement has been thoughtfully linked by Matthew Jones and contains much good information but doesn't really solve UFO's dilemma.
http://www.diodes.com/_files/products_appnote_pdfs/zetex/an39.pdf
It does, hopefully, make the point that high-side and low-side current measurements should give the same value if correctly performed.

A shunt similar to that shown by picowatt is necessary, and if an ordinary (unisolated) scope is used one must be careful about how and where it is installed into the circuit. The simplest way is to put the shunt on the negative battery terminal and use the scope to monitor the voltage drop across the shunt, bearing in mind that this creates an "artificial ground" that is slightly elevated in voltage from the true battery negative ground potential. If one tries to do this on the high-side of the load, one needs isolated channel references (like with the Fluke scopemeters) or differential voltage probes, or an isolation module as detailed in the Zetex document above. Far simpler to do it on the low side.... but this requires acknowledgement from UFOPolitics that a low-side current reading is valid, or at least a real, coherent explanation why it would not be.

Or one could use an actual, lab-grade power monitoring instrument like a Clarke-Hess 2330 or similar.
http://www.clarke-hess.com/2330.html

A couple of my commercial, calibrated, high-current shunts:

[TinselKoala]

Red said,

To my limited knowledge, there is no meter that will be able to sort out a difficult waveform accurately, and I do not think that this would matter at this point in time.

To which I reply (for just one example):

TRUE RMS/REALLY BROADBAND
The Model 2330 Sampling Watt Meter is a precision, high accuracy, auto-ranging  watt meter which simultaneously measures and displays true rms Voltage, true rms Current and true mean Power over a frequency range from dc to more than 600kHz. Full scale Current and Voltage inputs are typically measured within ±0.1% of the reading in amplitude to at least 400kHz. The corresponding Power is typically measured to within ±0.1% of the input Volt-Amperes to 200kHz and to within ±0.2% of the input Volt-Amperes to 400kHz for loads of any Power Factor.

MULTI-FUNCTION (ENERGY)
In addition to the rms Voltage, rms Current, and mean square Power the Model 2330 watt meter also  measures simultaneously the peak Voltage, the peak Current and the Frequency and calculates the Volt-Ampere product, the Power Factor and the Energy accumulated over a period of time from 1-99 hours. These functions may be displayed or may be read over the IEEE-488.2 interface.  The Energy function makes compliance with the Federal Guidelines for Standby Power Use quite straight forward. (Executive Order 13221)
UNPARALLELED HIGH FREQUENCY ACCURACY
The Model 2330 watt meter allows broadband and high accuracy measurements of both sinusoidal and highly distorted wave shapes. The Current, Voltage, Power, and Power Factor accuracies to 400kHz of the Model 2330 far exceed any other sampling Volt-Ampere-Watt Meter, or for that matter, with respect to Current or Voltage, almost all conventional multimeters. Although reduced by a factor of two, excellent accuracy is maintained to 600kHz.
Full scale Power ranges exist for loads with impedances from (0.6V/1.5A) = 0.4W to (600V/1.5mA) = 400kW.
WIDE MEASUREMENT RANGE
The Model 2330 watt meter has full scale Power ranges from 1.0000mW to 10000W. With external shunts or current to voltage transducers the upper range may be extended by a factor of ten or one hundred. Full scale Voltage from 2.000V to 2000V (usable to 600V) and full scale Current ranges from 5.000mA to 5.000A (all rms values) cover a wide range of load impedances. Full scale Current and Voltage inputs may have crest factors up to three while smaller inputs may have even higher crest factors. Sinusoidal inputs with rms values of twice the nominal Full Scale value may be measured with no loss in accuracy.
POSSIBLE MEASUREMENT USES
Measurement of Ultrasonic Equipment of all types and power levels, Finished Transformers, Transformer Core Material, Switching Power Supplies, Fluorescent Lamp Ballasts of all types, Mercury Arc Lamp Circuits, Sodium Lamp Ballasts, Speed Controlled Motors of all types, Efficiency of any device with an electrical input and an electrical output, SCR Controlled Devices of all types, High Frequency and/or Distorted Currents from any source, Voltage Response of any device from DC to 600kHz, and the Characteristics of Electric Automobile Drives.

http://www.clarke-hess.com/2330.html


This is not the only "meter" with these capabilities.

I find it extremely ironic that I have never seen an electrical OU claimant report measurements made with an actual lab-grade power meter like these.

[tinman]

I think measurments get all to dificult,when they realy could be done quite easy.
If UFO has that much more output than input,then testing for overunity should be very easy.
When we have to start useing scope's and high end DMM's,then the input and output must be so close it's not funny.
Smooth DC in,and Smooth DC out-the best way to get accurate measurment's.
This is done simply by useing large diode's for rectification and large cap's to smooth out pulses.

A quick demo on what you will see your battery voltage doing in an underunity system,and an overunity system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNmusKnGlNY

So if UFO can loop his system as he say's,and the battery voltage DROP's to a rest voltage when load and return are disconected-then he will have everyone's attention.

[ramset]

TM
Please be advised ,any time you use the B word and O word together in the same sentence on this forum
Well................B.O.
I must also add that there is some part Of this Battery thing, that as you state above does need to be better understood .But
ultimately the simplest thing to do is cook eggs in the parking [batteries not included] lot or Loop the system

Thx
Chet

[spinn3er]

Hi, Ramsey - Mr. Chet!
Just popped in to say hello to you!


Cheers!
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