Banned yet again!

[Tom Booth]

Boy science forums these days are so open minded.

I think I have been banned or locked out of three forums in the past year or two.

I don't make trouble. Try not to anyway.

I was just about to make another post to a science forum discussion and discovered the forum was locked. So, if nobody minds, if anyone thinks it interesting or worthwhile we could continue it here. So this was going to be my post to that now locked thread. If you want the background. Go here:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=667129

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Doesn't this suggest to anyone here something that could be done with the "cold plate" of a High COP heat pump ?

[Tom Booth]

I really think what got the forum locked was not some mention of "perpetual motion" but this close to the last post I made. Though I'd been skating on thin ice for a while anyway.

I'm sorry but personally I think these kinds of calculations are a waste of time and entirely meaningless, irrelevant, misleading and frankly ridiculous.

As I said before, your using Carnot efficiency on a scale of absolute zero. Its nonsensical.

We are talking about an engine running on ambient heat. "Free" heat all around us in the air. A virtually unlimited supply that is renewed on a daily basis by the sun and will never run out until the sun itself burns out.

Lets take a "real world" example. Not really "REAL" just using real numbers in a hypothetical situation.

Lets say I build an experimental engine that runs on hot air and it works.

I set up hot air solar panels to help concentrate the heat for the engine. I even set up a heat pump along with the solar panels to add more heat on cloudy days.

The engine takes off. It draws in hot air and blows out cold air and generates electricity. I even set up duct work to use the cold air from the engine to air condition my house.

Day after day goes by and it keeps running day and night. I notice that the heat pump is redundant as it never goes on. It wasn't needed.

I'm sitting pretty. All the free energy I can use.

One day the wind blows my solar collector over. I didn't even notice because the engine kept running just the same without it. Still producing electricity. But now the air conditioning is way too cold.

Earlier I measured the heat in the solar panels at an average of 200 degrees Fahrenheit.

The engine was always utilizing 100% of all the heat the solar panels could produce and sometimes then some. Exhausting cold air into the house at a comfortable 60 degree Fahrenheit, even on balmy summer days.

Now with the solar panels destroyed I take new measurements. The engine is now drawing in 60 degree Fahrenheit ambient air directly. I'm shocked to see that the exhaust is now negative 30 degrees Fahrenheit. Thirty degrees below zero! No wonder the house was getting so damn cold.

What is the theoretical "Carnot Efficiency" of this little miracle engine ?

Unfortunately, I know, the thing didn't cool the air all the way down to absolute zero and the whole apparatus didn't disappear reducing itself to a single Bose-Einstein Condensate particle in the process so it can't be 100% efficient at removing every last drop of heat so that the exhaust air was colder than the dark side of the moon or deep interstellar space.

I'm a little fuzzy on the math and the conversion between Fahrenheit and Kelvin and all that technical stuff.

Based on the data. The "Th" and "Tc". all that complicated math stuff that's all Greek to me anyway.

What's the Carnot efficiency of this engine before and after the destruction of my solar collector ?

It is actually a very simple calculation. I was just trying to make a point.

Rather than make the calculation and post the results the discussion was locked soon thereafter. I waited several hours to see if there would be any response. Made a few more posts before going to bed. When I returned today the thread was locked.

The results I get using the standard formula for Carnot efficiency BTW is:

21% efficiency with the solar collectors attached to the engine.

17% after the solar collectors were removed.

My point being. It is completely ridiculous and misleading to try and apply Carnot efficiency numbers to this kind of machine. The result is practically meaningless or at best, completely misleading.

[jbignes5]

 

What you got from those guys are the usual cop fight they always spew.

Listen the heat in any space period is heat. If you have a heat pump the heat transfer is inside of the heat pump and not outside of it. Yes it sucks heat from the exposed coils on the input side but it is not connected to the resevior as they put it. it is still a source of heat. The pump works irregauardless of what they say.

So your analogy was perfect. The problem is when they get these questions they must answer the way they do or otherwise it creates "PROBLEMS" within their community. So they will always resort to semantics with the terminology and side step the real reason.

Tesla was absolutely correct. We have the perfect engine to do this and I suggest if you insulated the intemediatory piping you could gain benefits like you are suggesting and it will absolutely work. What is the heat engine gonna be?

Several ideas come to mind.

Nitinol metal<-changes heat and cold to motion
peltier <changes heat and cold to electrical current

In a refridgerator the heat pump sucks heat from the insulated interior and radiates it out in the condenser coil. That will work no matter where the resevoirs are. But you will increase the effect by cooling plates mounted on either side of a peltier unit insulated on all sides but the plates. The plates are on either side of the peltier units. weather or not you can get efficient enough peltier units is the question. But you idea has merit. Keep at it.

Also since I can not post to that thread because it was locked here is another bad idea that guy had about heat pipes. Heat pipes work. Why6 because they radiate to a larger surface area. It doesn't matter in the least what the internal cpu tower temp either since all they need is to have the cpu or video cpu cooled. It works and works well.

In fact you could use the heat pipe technology with no pump to work better because there is zero input to be used to get the action to work. You do need heat at a higher point then the radiated heat though. It's just a way to take concentrated heat and spread it out so that the ambient (larger area) can be radiated into. It does need a source of heat to kickstart it, to make the difference in potentials for the transfer to happen.

Heat pipes work on condensing and evaporation of a fluid in a sealed pipe, usually copper. Wicks are used inside of the copper pipe to facilitate condensing surfaces and directional flow of the fluid to the heat source end of the pipe. a heat pipe would be passive though and the output less.

[Low-Q]

I have also been thinking that the guys at physicsforums.com do not want to get into trouble. The main problem, I think, is that they misinterpret our intentions. We have openly said several times in that forum that this is not about perpetual motion or over unity - just a design which harness the heat from the air-reservoire (Which happens to be pretty large).


It does somewhat seem reasonable those explanations I got from them, but after thinking twice, those explanations is not about the actual concept. Probably because they haven't been able to imagine the design, and how it is suppose to work.


However, please let me try to explain this design using a simpler model.


Say you have a gerotor design. As the rotor rotates, air pockets at one side expands and the other side compress. By itself this is sufficient to make a heat engine by heating one side and cooling the other side.


Now take this design, and put a motor on it so the compression side heats up, and the expansion side cools down. This is now a heat pump. Place both pump and engine side by side so heat from the pump is transferred from the compression side of the engine into the expanding side of the heat engine. Let the other side be both in open air.


What happens then?
In a lossless design, both pump and engine share the same temperature at the hot side. However, the cold sides are not having the same temperatures, but slightly hotter on the compression side of the engine, and slightly cooler on the expanding side of the pump. Thus it will be harder to run the pump than the energy output from the heat engine can deliver - because the temperature difference in the pump is greater than the temperature difference in the engine. We need the opposite scenario, and how can that be accomplished?


Attached there is an image of the heat engine. The opposite of the pump which is hot on the right and cool at the left.


Vidar

[Airstriker]

Boy science forums these days are so open minded.

I think I have been banned or locked out of three forums in the past year or two.

I don't make trouble. Try not to anyway.

I was just about to make another post to a science forum discussion and discovered the forum was locked. So, if nobody minds, if anyone thinks it interesting or worthwhile we could continue it here. So this was going to be my post to that now locked thread. If you want the background. Go here:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=667129

---------------------------------

Doesn't this suggest to anyone here something that could be done with the "cold plate" of a High COP heat pump ?

I've made all the way through the locked thread and think it could have looked a bit better if you'd posted the Tesla's article. Can I ask you to post this one here ? Thx in advance.