Big try at gravity wheel

[minnie]

   Webby,
            the transfer pump looks like a difficult problem. I can't quite get my head round
   it at the moment, I'm looking forward to seeing the solution. The bit of magic?
                       John.

[MarkE]

MarkE,

If you are OK with calling the transfer pump 100% that is fine, it is just that in the real world I have not been able to achieve that and as a general rule I round up my input and round down my output,,

Is not the volume of the cylinder 26.5072 cubic cm? and so the payload should be very close to that value.

There is of course the filler that is displacing most of that volume, but it is the volume of displaced water in total and not just what has been added, volume wise, by the air.  So once the air is put into the cylinder so that there is a very thin layer of air on top the filler and down the annular gap, the equivalent volume of displaced water is the entire volume of the cylinder, as if it were an open chamber filed with air.

After the air has been transferred from B into A then B can be moved into the down position that A was at, hence, A becomes B and B becomes A.

I am not overly concerned about the buoyant value to the weight, the weight could be located out of the water as long as it was in communication with the cylinder.  Using weight is a more convenient method that using resistance, but in the end it is the resistance of the weight that allows for work to be done.

I really do not care about file names, whatever is easiest for you is fine,, I am trying to keep things easy and simple,, as you are aware, my communication skills are not the best

Webby, unless you start with a bubble between the top of the "A" piston and the underside of the cylinder, you do not get hydraulic force gain. Under those circumstances, the upward force that transmits to the underside of the cylinder is only that of the water displaced from the annular ring.  That restricts you to a submerged payload weight less than 2.651g, or else the cylinder never separates from the piston.  Once it does separate, then the force jumps because then you get the hydraulic force gain of the ratio of the entire area on the underside of the cylinder, versus the area of the annular ring.  For this reason I recommended a submerged weight of 2.641g as 2.934g dry weight with an SG of 10.0.  The submerged weight difference of 0.01g is incidental to the energy in the problem: < 0.5%, and meets the condition that the cylinder rises above the piston.  (We are ignoring things like surface tension.)

You need to define a whole cycle with a starting condition and an ending condition that are the same.  I am fine with making the cycle more complicated, but we will not be done until we execute a full cycle.  So, if after lifting the payload on the "A" side you want to pump the remaining "air" out of the "B" side so that we have the mirror image of State 2, that is fine by me.  We can then load a payload on the "B" side, pump air back from the "A" side, let that weight rise, remove the weight, pump the remaining "air" from the "A" side and we will have a full cycle starting and ending with the State 2 condition.  By symmetry, we should expect that the total work applied and total work done is exactly twice what it takes to get from State 2 to the mirror condition.

[mondrasek]

MarkE and webby1,

Can I suggest that you try modifing the geometry of the system you are modeling and testing this way:  Please place an infinitely small spacer between the top surface of the "piston" and the underside of the top of the cylinder.  So that water and/or air can accumulate in a gap between the top surface of the piston and the underside of the top of the cylinder uninhibited.  And then continue.

Thanks,

M.

[MarkE]

Mondrasek, if the goal is to get a bubble in there, then what would do that is to either lengthen the cylinder slightly, or shorten the piston slightly.  I propose to shorten the pistons to 14.99mm.  That will leave a 0.01mm high volume that is initially water.  Once we equalize the two sides the water will be pushed out, and we will get the 10:1 hydraulic piston force effect.  That will let us lift the heavier payload.  It will also change what happens as the piston rises.  Whereas with a smaller payload and no initial bubble the upward force jumps 10X and then falls off with the rise, under these circumstances, the force will just be enough to become positively buoyant.  As the cylinder rises, the bubble above the piston gets larger shortening the length of the bubble in the annular ring, bringing the system back to neutral buoyancy.  In order to remain positively buoyant we will have to keep pumping "air" from the "B" side all the way to the stop.  The amount of work that we will have to perform doing so will be the difference in P*V of the cylinder right before it starts rising and the cylinder up against the stop.  The good news is that when we are done there won't be any air left on the "B" side.  We can then give the "B" side a little nudge and the "B" cylinder will fall back to the bottom of the vessel.

[MarkE]

MarkE,

I have said many times now that the air is to be kept at the bottom of the cylinder while lifting, why do you keep trying to "improve" what I am describing?

At this point you seem to be hallucinating.  I have reviewed each and every post of yours on this thread since you posted your sketch that showed zero air gap between the top of the piston and the underside of the cylinder.  Nowhere do I find you describing that you require a gap, nor a means to create one when the cylinder is in the lowermost position.  Your sketch shows the cylinder in contact with the piston.

How will you deal with sectioning the long cylinder into 5 pieces, will you notice that when you do that that the section of cylinder that is inside becomes the filler,, will you notice that when you do that that your volume of input drops to 1\5?  will you notice that the pressure is still the same?

Then there is the pod.

Webby I have drawn the geometry as you have dribbled it out beginning with your very sparse hand sketch.  We have reviewed the drawings.  I have made appropriate changes each time you offered comments and/or new information.  Telling me that I have not penned the drawings according to your descriptions defies the written record.  I have no idea what sectioning you refer to because this is the first that I have heard of it.

This is your thought problem.  Since you are not satisfied with the drawings that I have prepared, there is a simple solution:  Draft the necessary drawings to describe the problem as you envision it yourself.