Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.

[Magluvin]

Yes Mr Eric Dollard is confused by toroidal transformer induction and says no one knows how it happens.    So I linked that PDF at EF maybe over 1 year ago.  In response to mbrowne.

Although I think it is theoretical.

I think bench tests are in order.

Cheers

Yes, tests.

When we consider how 1 wire can induce another wire using Ac or pulse input, then why would we ignore it within a transformer?     When I see vids on YT on the subject or even in books(havnt read them all) they tend to show a core, primary and secondary and depict magnetic field lines in the cores. But I dont see much about how that field, locked in the core(lets say most of it) produced by the primary, induces current in the secondary. Its like they skip that part and what they show is all there is to know apparently. That pdf I posted gives those answers, and those answers explain clearly how that mutual induction works within a toroid or any other transformer with a closed loop core.

One experiment that might be interesting is to just have 2 wires, a primary and a secondary of particular length laying next to each other and pulse the primary while reading the secondary. Then get a bunch of toroids stacked almost the length of the wires and run the 2 wires through the cores where we have the ends of the wires coming out of each end of the core stack and redo those tests to see if there is a difference.


I have a 10 pack of linear hall sensors coming from China. Will see what we can see.

Mags

[Magluvin]

@MH
Quote: Going back to using magnets in cores, a point that I made a few times is that the magnetization of the core can't by definition affect anything.

So i guess this being the case,i should ask as to why i am able to get a voltage out of the coil that is sitting 3/4 of an inch away from the toroid coil?.We can see(other than the phase shift due to high frequency)that it seems to be coupled to the pulsed input> Now this is an AC input,but i dont see that makeing a difference?.
If the fields are contained within the core,i should get nothing in the way of voltage in the secondary coil?.

A test thought.
If i take a standard toroid coil(non magnetised core)and place a magnet above the center,when applying a dc current to the toroid coil,the magnet above should have less attraction due to core saturation?. If i get a stronger pull on the PM when a dc current is applied,this could only mean an eminating magnetic field-correct?.
Just trying to think how we could test to see if there is an eminating magnetic field from the toroid.

Hey Tin

If your core is a magnet, then thats why you get output from a coil near the toroid coil.

The magnet has a field that can reach the pickup coil. Then when you pulse the toroid coil, it alters the magnet(core) field from normal to the altered field, thus giving you output in your pickup coil due to the flexing of the magnets field.    Use a normal core and you should not get much of anything from the pickup, unless the core becomes saturated due to large input that produces a field so strong that it cant hold anymore, so the excess field expands outward to induce the pickup coil.

As for  "If i take a standard toroid coil(non magnetised core)and place a magnet above the center,when applying a dc current to the toroid coil,the magnet above should have less attraction due to core saturation?."

This is the concept of Steorn's Orbo motor.  My Orbonbon solid state Orbo uses the same concept of controlling a cores attraction ability to direct a magnets field elsewhere in order to induce a field in a pickup coil.  Here is a vid of my tiny toroid orbo. The magnets of the rotor are attracted to the toroid core, and when the toroid coil is pulsed, just when the mag is right at the core, the coil saturates the core and lets the magnet pass by.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrtGzxOKpwQ

And here is the Orbonbon vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES00DfhHH-U

The Orbonbon has a core in a core, where the inner core is wound with a pickup coil around the circumference of the inner bead core. Then I wind that inner bead core with a toroid winding also.

Pulsing the toroid winding has little affect on the pickup coil, I have a few vids on this, but when I insert magnets in the inner core, those N and S fields of the magnets are attracted to the inner core due to proximity. Then when we pulse the toroid coil, the inner core saturates and the magnets are not attracted to it anymore and the fields jump to the outer core, in which the flux 'cuts' the pickup coil. Then when the pulse is over, the flux jumps back to the inner core, due to shortest path, and it induces the pickup coil again causing an opposite output as the flux cuts the pickup coil again, only inward this time. So we get a positive pulse out when the toroid coil is energized, and neg out when the toroid pulse drops. 

Mags

[Dave45]

wake up
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Material/Andersen_AETHER_CONTROL_via_an_understanding_of_ORTHOGONAL_FIELDS.pdf

[tinman]

Here is another oddity found today,while looking into field strength over P/in of the rotor of the new high powered pulse motor project-the Altipulse.
Now we all know how an alternator works-right?.
Well in this video,i seem to be missing one polarity of the magnetic field???.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5nrlGpCB9I

[MileHigh]

Tinman:

why i am able to get a voltage out of the coil that is sitting 3/4 of an inch away from the toroid coil?

It's because the main coil is actually two coils in one.  The main toroidal coil is one coil and the the single big loop of the entire toroidal coil is another coil - a single turn coil.  There are no fields of any significance radiating from the main toroidal coil.  The coupling you are seeing is between your pick-up coil and the single big loop.  That looks like two coils on the same center axis facing each other, N turns of your pick-up coil and one turn of your driving coil.  It's an N:1 air core transformer with a 3/4 inch gap between the coils.

We can see(other than the phase shift due to high frequency)that it seems to be coupled to the pulsed input

The phase shift looks like it is nearly exactly 90 degrees, and that could be significant.  With an N:1 air core transformer coupling a signal between the two coils there should be no phase shift.  I can't explain any more beyond that.

One possibility is that your excitation frequency is very high and the coil is not functioning like a coil anymore, and the parasitic capacitance has taken over.  If I were in your shoes I would do a frequency sweep and observe what happens to the phase shifts and current amplitudes to figure out what is going on.

If i take a standard toroid coil(non magnetised core)and place a magnet above the center,when applying a dc current to the toroid coil,the magnet above should have less attraction due to core saturation?. If i get a stronger pull on the PM when a dc current is applied,this could only mean an eminating magnetic field-correct?.

Yes you should get less attraction due to core saturation.  However, you have the field generated from the toroid like I mentioned above, where toroid does generate a magnetic field from the equivalent single-turn coil.  That will cause attraction or repulsion.  So there will be two effects happening at the same time.  Also, the degree of perceived saturation from the point of view of the magnet may be different if the magnet is above the toroid as compared to if the magnet is on the side of the toroid.  It also will depend on how how much current is flowing through the toroidal coil.  How do you know how much current is required to saturate the core?  Maybe the core will only be 90% saturated as an example.

Everything has direction when playing with magnetic fields.  I suspect that when the magnet is above the toroid that the perceived degree of saturation will be less as compared to when the magnet is on the side of the toroid.  That's because there is perhaps more of an opportunity to "bend" the direction of the magnetic domains as compared to when the magnet is beside the toroid.  I have never done any of this stuff, I am just trying to crunch this in my head.

Here is another oddity found today,while looking into field strength over P/in of the rotor of the new high powered pulse motor project-the Altipulse.
Now we all know how an alternator works-right?.
Well in this video,i seem to be missing one polarity of the magnetic field???.

This looks like nothing more than current steering with diodes and two sets of coils.  So how do you check for the presence of the diodes?

MileHigh