Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.

[MileHigh]

Webby1:

When I energize the copper coil, with a pulse, the coat hanger coil, aka the core, does produce a current.  If I leave the ends open I can measure it.

It's not surprising that you get some kind of reaction from the coat hangar core when you pulse the outer copper toroid.  Any core that is conductive will produce eddy currents when it is pulsed, as an example.  Plus the ideal toroid configuration would have perfect symmetry, and any deviations from the symmetry will show up in your measurements as small detectable signals.  So your setup will do that.

So,, what I was getting at is, that this way the core is still a core maybe and then you could actually measure what the internal current is instead of using formulas.

In theory you would only see eddy currents in a conductive core when there is AC excitation of the real copper toroid coil.  If you have a lot of experience on the bench you may have observed that a scope probe on high sensitivity will pick up a main signal in a circuit almost anywhere else in the circuit for all sorts of reasons; unexpected signal propagation in the circuit itself, coupling through stray capacitance and stray inductance, etc, etc.

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

Dave45:

If you look at the pic of the solenoid froze in ice you can see the A field.

I have never in my life heard about immersing something in water and then freezing it into ice to visualize fields.  Can you explain how that works?

Once you understand this concept you can see exactly how Ed leedskalnin's PMH works, there is a magnetic field flowing in the toroid and an electric field flowing in the air looping through the toroid, as long as the magnetic field is not interrupted the fields will continue for years, but when the magnetic field is broken the electric field collapses into the coils and will light a bulb. There are quite a few vids on youtube showing this effect.
simple simple simple

I understand exactly how the PMH works, it's like a magnetic equivalent to a charged capacitor.  There is no electric field in the air that loops through the toroidal form of a typical PMH.  The only field at play is the magnetic field that is contained within the PMH.  The PMH is basically a temporary magnet that loops back onto itself.  Because it feeds back onto itself the temporary magnet can remain permanently magnetized as long as it is not disturbed.

From my personal perspective it's almost like there is a mini cult around the PMH and that's a real shame.

but when the magnetic field is broken the electric field collapses into the coils and will light a bulb. There are quite a few vids on youtube showing this effect.  simple simple simple

It is simple but not like you state.  Only when the magnetic field collapses do you get a brief electric field appearing and then disappearing that can light the light bulb.  The electric field only exists for a brief amount of time.  You are saying that it's always there and finally collapses when you break the magnetic field and that's not true.

As far as the A field goes, you are of course referring to an "Aether field."  Sorry but there is no such thing.  It's part of a belief system that has a life of its own and you are buying into it.  Freezing water does not organize into ice around an A field, there are other explanations for how and why water freezes into ice in recognizable patterns that could be explained to you by people knowledgeable in that field.  I did read how water is slightly diamagnetic and saw a cool picture of a frog floating in thin air though!

You did a drive-by posting linking to a pseudoscience document about toroids and alleged Aether fields.  It really had nothing to do with Tinman's investigation but I thought I would still comment.   I know people believe that it is raining down Aether particles and that's pushing on us to keep our feet on the ground.  You can do the modelling like that and it will function just like gravity.  But where do all the raining Aether particles go when they reach the center of the Earth?  It's just pseudoscience as far as I am concerned.  How come there are no experiments that I am aware of that document and show detection of "collisions" between Aether particles and our bodies to keep our feet on the ground?  They can detect alpha particle collisions and neutrino collisions and neutron collisions, how come no detection of Aether particle collisions?

Did you see how we derived a formula for the magnetic field inside a toroid?  It was just an application of Maxwell's equations.  For this alleged A field, I would not be surprised if all that you have are sketches dreamed up by enthusiasts and a rough anecdotal "rule book" like you expressed in some of your postings.  You can't mathematically model the alleged A field, nor can you measure it with anything.  Like I said, the ice deal is a non starter as far as I am concerned.

I just showed you the secret of the ages and you dont even realize it

You can buy a tshirt that shows Maxwell's equations in differential and integral form - that's the secret of the ages revealed.

There has never been a legitimate demonstration of a bunch of stacked coils showing a reduction in the acceleration due to gravity.  It's just a fantasy, all part of the belief system that you ascribe to.  Even in the graphic the author says that it "may" work like he or she needs some kind of escape clause if they are ever seriously challenged.

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

Tinman:

Poynt made a very interesting comment:

With no input current, the axis of the majority of the speaker magnet domains is in the vertical plane. When you apply some current to the coil, some or all of the magnet's domains will rotate towards the horizontal plane, and the degree to which they rotate will depend on the current, strength of the magnet, and frequency of the drive signal.

If you were to replace the core with a non-magnetized material, or use no core at all, you should find that most of the B-field is contained within the toroid, and you will have little to no signal in your pickup coil.

That's something that I didn't think of and it sounds reasonable.  Supposing that instead of a magnet inside the coil there was an electromagnet.  This is a thought experiment.  With an electromagnet generating the magnetic field in the vertical plane, then when you put AC into the toroidal coil the vertical field generated by the electromagnet would not be affected at all.

I am going to disagree with Poynt when he says that when you replace the core with non-magnetized material that you will have little or no signal in your pick-up coil.  I already explained why several times so I won't repeat it.  Let's call my process the "secondary magnetic field" process.

Therefore in your current setup with the magnetized core, the pick coil may be responding to the disturbed magnetic field from the magnet, as well as the secondary magnetic field process.

You mentioned that at low frequencies that you saw no phase shift in the pick-up coil waveform.  That suggests that the coil was responding as a coil.

Then you stated that at a higher frequency you got maximum amplitude with a 90 degree phase shift observed in the pick-up coil.  There is a possible explanation for that.  You hit this self-resonant frequency for the coil and the inductive reactance and the parasitic capacitive reactance cancelled each other out.  That means the coil just looked like an ordinary wire with no inductance or capacitance.  So you would get AC current through the coil at the self-resonant frequency and at the same time there would be no phase shift between the AC voltage excitation for the coil and the AC current flowing through the coil  (normally it's 90 degrees).  Under those conditions you would expect to see a 90 degree phase shift between your AC excitation waveform and the AC voltage waveform for the pick-up coil.

When you push the frequency even higher the capacitive reactance takes over and then you would expect to see a 180 degree phase shift between the AC excitation waveform and the AC voltage waveform for the pick-up coil.  Under these conditions your toroidal inductor actually looks like a capacitor.

The standard caveat is that this would have to be checked and verified on the bench.

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

Finally, I will state a very easy way to visualize the secondary magnetic field with another example that was just recently mentioned by Poynt.

He talked about a mile-long straight inductor coil that was one inch in diameter.  He said that for all practical intents and purposes the field is fully contained inside the tube of the coil.  There is a "return magnetic field" outside the tube of the coil but it would be so weak as to be undetectable.

Imagine you have one ampere of current flowing through the mile-long straight coil.   Now imagine you back away from the coil.  50 feet away, then 100 feet away, then 500 feet away.

From 500 feet away the one-inch-diameter coil looks just like an ordinary straight wire with one ampere of current flowing through it.  You know that a straight wire with one amp of current flowing through it will have a cylindrical magnetic field wrapped around it.  So it's the same thing for the one-mile-long one-inch-diameter coil.  It will also have a cylindrical magnetic field wrapped around it.  That's the secondary field that I am talking about.  So the same process happens with a toroidal coil also.

MileHigh

[Dave45]

You just keep following the same old dogma as for me Im headed for free energy with a clear understanding of how it works, There's alot of things I havent shown but it wouldnt do any good anyway, Youv never experimented with the ice so how do you know what it can or cant do, you will see.

Dave45:

I have never in my life heard about immersing something in water and then freezing it into ice to visualize fields.  Can you explain how that works?

I understand exactly how the PMH works, it's like a magnetic equivalent to a charged capacitor.  There is no electric field in the air that loops through the toroidal form of a typical PMH.  The only field at play is the magnetic field that is contained within the PMH.  The PMH is basically a temporary magnet that loops back onto itself.  Because it feeds back onto itself the temporary magnet can remain permanently magnetized as long as it is not disturbed.

From my personal perspective it's almost like there is a mini cult around the PMH and that's a real shame.

It is simple but not like you state.  Only when the magnetic field collapses do you get a brief electric field appearing and then disappearing that can light the light bulb.  The electric field only exists for a brief amount of time.  You are saying that it's always there and finally collapses when you break the magnetic field and that's not true.

As far as the A field goes, you are of course referring to an "Aether field."  Sorry but there is no such thing.  It's part of a belief system that has a life of its own and you are buying into it.  Freezing water does not organize into ice around an A field, there are other explanations for how and why water freezes into ice in recognizable patterns that could be explained to you by people knowledgeable in that field.  I did read how water is slightly diamagnetic and saw a cool picture of a frog floating in thin air though!

You did a drive-by posting linking to a pseudoscience document about toroids and alleged Aether fields.  It really had nothing to do with Tinman's investigation but I thought I would still comment.   I know people believe that it is raining down Aether particles and that's pushing on us to keep our feet on the ground.  You can do the modelling like that and it will function just like gravity.  But where do all the raining Aether particles go when they reach the center of the Earth?  It's just pseudoscience as far as I am concerned.  How come there are no experiments that I am aware of that document and show detection of "collisions" between Aether particles and our bodies to keep our feet on the ground?  They can detect alpha particle collisions and neutrino collisions and neutron collisions, how come no detection of Aether particle collisions?

Did you see how we derived a formula for the magnetic field inside a toroid?  It was just an application of Maxwell's equations.  For this alleged A field, I would not be surprised if all that you have are sketches dreamed up by enthusiasts and a rough anecdotal "rule book" like you expressed in some of your postings.  You can't mathematically model the alleged A field, nor can you measure it with anything.  Like I said, the ice deal is a non starter as far as I am concerned.

You can buy a tshirt that shows Maxwell's equations in differential and integral form - that's the secret of the ages revealed.

There has never been a legitimate demonstration of a bunch of stacked coils showing a reduction in the acceleration due to gravity.  It's just a fantasy, all part of the belief system that you ascribe to.  Even in the graphic the author says that it "may" work like he or she needs some kind of escape clause if they are ever seriously challenged.

MileHigh