Artificial Gravity Power

[nybtorque]

Hi all!


I posted this in the mechanics forum, but maybe it's better suited here?


http://www.overunity.com/13557/double-pendulum-power/60/#.UnDwyCiizxg


Regards NT


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One way to make my concept (http://www.scribd.com/doc/146232946/Double-Pendulum-Power-AC-Power-from-a-Mechanical-Oscillator)  easier to grasp, is to think of the inner pendulum mass as in constant free fall.


It's not in free fall with the acceleration G in one direction (down...) but it's in free fall using an oscillating artificial gravity (varying in strength and direction with the frequency of oscillation) provided by the centrifugal force of the outer pendulum. And, the nice part is that this artificial gravity is free, as the system is set in rotation.


It's analogous to free fall, and as I pointed out; power has no direction.


The general critique is that if energy is taken out of the system it has to be replaced. And this certainly is valid, and applies to the kinetic energy in the system, as in friction. But kinetic energy is a function of velocity, not acceleration.


So, all we have to do, is learn how to utilize this power.


And, what do we do when we want to utilize gravity for power?


Of course we use a generator to capture it... Like in a hydropower plant. If we let the water fall with no resistance - no power, and if we build a dam - no power (but lots of static forces...) BUT, for all resistances in between we capture the potential energy as E=mgh.


The same applies in my concept because we're dealing with potential energy from artificial gravity - If the mass is fixed; only static forces, and if it is free to move (as in the double pendulum) no power... But, for all resistances in between... 


Here we even have the mass oscillating so we do not need to worry about the water getting up the hill again. Instead we get AC-power from the oscillations.


As Nicola Tesla said:

"If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration."

[telecom]

Hi nybtorque,
I would like to ask you if my reasoning based on the power calculation makes any sense.

The inner pendulum have to overcome friction and other losses while activating the outer pendulum.
Lets say its a motor which consumes 100 w to oscillate an outer pendulum with an amplitude of 1 cm.
1000 w will approximately mean of lifting 100 kg by 1 meter in 1 second, in this case 100w will be equal 10 kg x 100 cm in 1 second, or 1000 kg x 1 cm /1 sec.

Lets say an outer pendulum makes 10 oscillation per second, which will be equal to 600 rpm for the inner pendulum.
Since an outer pendulum makes  2 maximal movement per the oscillation, to generate 100 w it will need to generate  the centrifugal force of 1000/20 = 50 kG ~500 N.
Then we can find the radius/ mass ratio for the outer pendulum by the formula for the centrifugal force, F = mV^2/r.
Does it make sense or I missed something?

[nybtorque]

Hi nybtorque,
I would like to ask you if my reasoning based on the power calculation makes any sense.

The inner pendulum have to overcome friction and other losses while activating the outer pendulum.
Lets say its a motor which consumes 100 w to oscillate an outer pendulum with an amplitude of 1 cm.
1000 w will approximately mean of lifting 100 kg by 1 meter in 1 second, in this case 100w will be equal 10 kg x 100 cm in 1 second, or 1000 kg x 1 cm /1 sec.

Lets say an outer pendulum makes 10 oscillation per second, which will be equal to 600 rpm for the inner pendulum.
Since an outer pendulum makes  2 maximal movement per the oscillation, to generate 100 w it will need to generate  the centrifugal force of 1000/20 = 50 kG ~500 N.
Then we can find the radius/ mass ratio for the outer pendulum by the formula for the centrifugal force, F = mV^2/r.
Does it make sense or I missed something?

@Telecom


I'm not sure if you got the concept right. I'm using the outer pendulum to activate the inner pendulum. In my report I set the outer pendulum in motion at a certain rotational speed and/or angle depending on what I want to analyze. The accelerations and velocities of the two masses then interact in a complicated manner which I solve numerically (using Runge Kutta method, ie. some kind of FEM method).


Actually the dimensions of the pendulums are not that important, bigger, heavier and faster pendulums give more power. Design and construction issues are more relevant i believe since canceling vibrations and harvesting the power are the hardest problem to solve. There seem to be optimal load though, since no load gives no power and a big load makes the mass more or less stop, ie. low velocity = low power. I found that a load that is more or less equal to the pendulum mass is optimal, but might not be the most practical.


Regards NT

[telecom]

Hi NT,
it should be red in reverse -  inner for the outer and vice versa.
What I wanted to say is that the outer pendulum is not really a pendulum,
but the body which can be described by the first law of Newton, and yet it produces a force acting on the inner pendulum. This force can be calculated as a centrifugal.
This force is due to a missing reaction which is caused by the floating axis of the
outer pendulum. Since the outer pendulum acts according to the first law, the turning
torque only should be sufficient to overcome the friction, no matter how big the speed and the mass are.
Regards

[nybtorque]

Hi NT,
it should be red in reverse -  inner for the outer and vice versa.
What I wanted to say is that the outer pendulum is not really a pendulum,
but the body which can be described by the first law of Newton, and yet it produces a force acting on the inner pendulum. This force can be calculated as a centrifugal.
This force is due to a missing reaction which is caused by the floating axis of the
outer pendulum. Since the outer pendulum acts according to the first law, the turning
torque only should be sufficient to overcome the friction, no matter how big the speed and the mass are.
Regards

Ok. I get it. You're correct in that the torque needed is to overcome friction, but you also need torque to replace the kinetic energy taken out by the generator (reduction of pendulum velocity). This however is not the same that you have to replace all power taken out by the generator because a reduction of velocity actually increases acceleration more or less half of the time. This is the nature of oscillations and AC-power.