The Bessler Wheel, mystery solved.

[camelherder49]

If you can not solve the problem,"change the problem."

I would prefer hooking the bucket handle on a "sky hook"
so no work would be needed to hold it indefinitely!

[MarkE]

If you can not solve the problem,"change the problem."

I would prefer hooking the bucket handle on a "sky hook"
so no work would be needed to hold it indefinitely!

Why exert energy to do no useful work?  One could go out and build a chair that uses a rocket engine to support one's weight, or just use a conventional chair with legs.

[Newton II]

Ah yes the term Work. It does seem to be misinterpreted. Like to lift something is work, but to hold something is not, according to how teachers teach physics. So if you pick up a bucket of water? that is work. Now hold that bucket up and strait out for a period of time and that becomes the hardest time of non work we ever did. Work? LOL You definitely extended a lot amount of energy. You hart beats faster, your muscles hurt and you are tired out. But you were not doing work. But it is said that gravity is working against you to hold the bucket. It looks to me, to be more of a tug of war as in the game. So if the rope is not going to one side or the other not moving, the people on the rope must not be doing Work, but in truth they are getting a workout. LOL

I think it can be put in another way.   As Newton's third law states,  forces always happen in pairs in opposite directions.  For  every F  there has to be a      -F  in opposite direction.    So, when you consider work as F*S reulting from force F,   there has to be equal amount of work  -F*S in opposite direction resulting from the force -F.

Hence when you lift a bucket of water,  you will be storing potential energy  m*g*h  in it.  But your muscles will be spending energy
-m*g*h   in opposite direction  to maintain potential energy in the lifted bucket.  So, you will feel tired.

So,  if you find a method  to add mgh and -mgh    only in magnitude leaving  the direction then net work done will be  2mgh !!    (efficiency is 200%)

Just a thought!  Correct me if I am wrong.

[mscoffman]

There is a .pdf file by a guy named Linevich who says this problem all traces back to
a defintion as to whether one should consider a weight (or mass) moving on it's
own through space (flying) as (a) having no work is being done at all, that the propensity
is just a propensity of the mass of matter to have inertia - or  (b) work by the law of
matter momentum is being done to the weight. He says that an error initially in
science reasoning occured when they picked (a) over (b).

Another group of people then showed that the dual pendulum situation is directly
mathematically analogously linked to this same first analyses mathematics.

I've also seen that a guy who fires a magnetic mass through ring magnetic gets
an anomolous reaction to the expected newtonian one and seems to trace it to same
thing.  I think this could be tested in a "vomit commet" aircraft where weightlessness
is experienced, as a non-mass reaction space drive. If you fire these two pieces
apart linked by a rubber bungy cord they should (A) either continue to recollide at the
center of gravity of the system or (B) collide but then both go driftting off the experiemental
stage to the left or right.


So man, this could be a real problem and a Gruganax's demo will seal it.

:S:MarkSCoffman
   
---

Off topic post apologies

The other thing is that "tension" is not a really a real force because a small amount of motion always
accompanies it in the real world. That small amount of motion at very high levels of force still equals
negative work being applied by a support. Unbalanced machines can produce a delayed -work reflection
some of which might be re-collectable. Eventually repeating this causes the support material to fail
under stress. So one could consider the materials ability to retain it's integrity as a kind of fuel.
I think that is what I think is behind that giant .RAR machine. Eventually one of the welds breaks
and it's time for a fill-up.

What the proportion of tension results in the final tension and how much is energy based acceleration
is in final tension determines how much energy is used to maintain it.

[AB Hammer]

I choose to hold it straight out pushing it onto a shelf at the lifted height.Nope, my handy shelf doesn't perform any work holding up that bucket, and because I am lazy enough to take advantage of the shelf, neither do I.I think you mean if you ever show such a thing.  Many, many have tried and none have succeeded.  In order to succeed you are going to have to find a way for something to weigh more on its way down than it does on its way up.  No one has yet found a way to make a mass smaller based on its position relative to other masses.There is certainly much to learn.  That's why retreading the same ground over and over seems so counterproductive.  Yet, there are people bent on at least claiming to do just that.

MarkE

That is not how it works. At least not one of my wheels. Here is how it works in a veg description.  One foot reaches the descending side wall of the wheel at 2:30 as the other foot starts to lift at 5:30 and the full action is finished and then repeats. This is the same wheel that nearly took off my thumb and broke the mechanism over 4 years ago but the new version is a lot better constructed. It is very personal why I haven't rebuilt it till now. You will have to read about that on Besslerwheel.com comunity buzz for I will not repeat it if I can help it.

Alan


P.S. Now that we gave gurangax a rest. LOL, Now lets get back on topic and maybe we might see at least a covered wheel self starting then stopped and reversed as claimed.