Vaccinations; recent developments

[SeaMonkey]

Unvaccinated children should not be allowed to attend school: PERIOD.

In times past this would qualify as a very strange
outlook.  But back then Public Schools were actually
performing as they were intended.

Today the Public Schools are quite different and it is
for that reason that I agree with what you've said above.
In fact, I'd go a bit further as Dr Laura recommends:
Get your children out of the Public School system!

Home Schooling (the Original plan of raising responsible
and capable offspring) or other alternatives to Public Schools
are recommended by those who really know.

Public Schools have become Mass Indoctrination Centers for
the New Order of Things.  Their specialty is Mind Numbed Robots
who are incapable of Critical Thinking much less Thinking at all.

[allcanadian]

@Sark

No, liability is failure to meet your legal obligation to act.  So lets say your
child dies of GBS from a government mandated vaccine.  They are not liable until
you prove that they failed to meet a legal obligation.  For example adequate
safety testing could be used.  If it could be shown that the government was
negligent in this then that would constitute a failure to act.  However just
because something bad happens does not necessitate a liability.

By definition liability means -- "one of the most significant words in the field of law, liability means legal responsibility for one's acts or omissions. Failure of a person or entity to meet that responsibility leaves him/her/it open to a lawsuit for any resulting damages". Now if you forced me get a vaccination by law which is an action on your part and it did harm/damage then you are solely responsible for your action which did harm...very simple. As you may know ignorance is not an actual excuse or defense for anything...it's just ignorance.

One good reason I wouldn't sign such a thing is
simply due to the vagaries of the legal system.  While I might have
high-confidence in the safety and efficacy of vaccines.  I don't have anywhere
near as much confidence in juries and judges.  I mean take you for example. (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
If juries were peopled by someone like yourself who has many strong beliefs
based on weak evidence.  I'm not very confident that you would be able to make a
correct judgement.

I think you know the odds of a very serious if not fatal side effect are about the same as winning the lottery however someone somewhere wins the lottery every week don't they?. What mandatory vaccination is saying is that we will have no choice and must play the lottery not unlike a completely screwed up version of the Hunger Games, at least she had a bow to shoot the stupid SOB that made her play while we do not.In any case I understand your view, your a smart guy but let's face the fact that nobody is willing to accept responsibility here and that is very disturbing. Everyone talks about facts and statistics and safety however nobody is willing to accept sole responsibility in any way, shape or form. As such I submit there is nothing truly responsible about them in my opinion as a responsible adult is just as it sounds --- Responsible - Adult. 
Forcing our will or beliefs on someone else and then accepting no responsiblity for our actions is not democracy moreso terrorism ie, acts intended to create fear.

AC 

[joel321]

http://www.zengardner.com/conspiracy-science-better-world-possible/

That is a lot to digest for me but I can see the truth. I'm wondering right now who is the J P Morgan in the year 2015?

People are so focused in mere vaccinations! Where there is a wholeeee lot to be LEARNED!

There are black projects everywhere.

Vaccinations are not that IMPORTANT when it comes to the real meat of the bone.

I mean in the year 2015 we have ISIS terrorists! How do you vaccinate them?

And then we have GREED! Where rich people are trying to play god. It goes reallly deep. To the point that human beings are working for aliens. In exchange, the aliens give the humans KNOWLEDGE power = ELITES get power and money and aliens harvest humans as food.

A lot of people don't understand these things so we mostly just talk about things that are not underground stuff.

While I do like learning SCIENCE, I don't get blinded by the whole purpose of life since all ANIMALS have this encoding in our brains because that means = survival.

Genetic war, mental war, is the same = SURVIVAL!

What is the lagging of human survival you ask? Well it is money, duh! lol

On a side note, the average vaccine pro person does not even understand these type of stuff. While raging about vaccinations lol

Do they even understand "chemtrails" that are done over your head with out your permission. They feel the RIGHT to use people as lab rats as long as the rats don't complain.

[allcanadian]

@Sark

If juries were peopled by someone like yourself who has many strong beliefs
based on weak evidence.  I'm not very confident that you would be able to
make a correct judgement.

I understand I may come off as a bit of a hard ass not unlike yourself, lol, however I think we have the same concerns. In fact I'm always the guy caught inbetween the two disputing parties and everyone keeps asking me to be the executor of their will and resolve business disputes for them.
As well recently my daughter needed to get the MMR shot for her work experience at the hospital and I was worried as any good parent should be however not so much that I didn't allow her to get the vaccination. I also quizzed the health nurse who was basically incompetent as I knew magnitudes more than she did about the shot she was giving which was also disturbing. In any case we may disagree at times however we are not the real problem because we have actually taken the time to debate the real issues and try to make informed decisions as best we can. Obviously if my daughter was vaccinated then I do not consider my views extreme nor my beliefs strong it's just that most of the people I meet are incompetent and I don't trust them. Take this anyway you like but from your posts I would trust you moreso than 80% of the people I meet because you seem like an rational and intelligent person who actually thinks things through.

AC

[sarkeizen]

"one of the most significant words in the field of law"

You left out: "This requires evidence of the duty to act, the failure to fulfill that duty and the connection (proximate cause) of that failure to some injury or harm to the plaintiff. "

Now if you forced me get a vaccination by law which is an action on your part and it did harm/damage then you are solely responsible for your action which did harm

There are three parts there.  The duty to act, the failure to fulfill and the resultant injury.  In your example you only show the last.  Not all deaths are the result of a lack of duty to act.  For example just invert your scenario.  If the government had not yet approved a vaccine for some disease and your child died from it.  Can you sue them?  The government is effectively forcing you to not take the vaccine.

I think you know the odds of a very serious if not fatal side effect are about the same as winning the lottery however someone somewhere wins the lottery every week don't they?

The well-known serious side effect of common vaccines are few and far between.  i.e. GBS in influenza and outside of the Swine Flu epidemic of 1976.  You have considerably better odds of winning the lottery. 

What mandatory vaccination is saying is that we will have no choice and must play the lottery not unlike a completely screwed up version of the Hunger Games

Utter. Crap.  The hunger games had odds of 23 in 24 of death.  This is not comparable in the least.

Everyone talks about facts and statistics and safety however nobody is willing to accept sole responsibility in any way, shape or form.

Because sole responsibility for a particular death can not, in any way shape or form be assigned.  Think about it, I could tell you that if you were to vaccinate 5 million people the flu vaccine that you would expect X to die or seriously harmed due GBS because of the flu vaccine.  I could also tell you that another Y people will die of GBS from some other infection.  I could also tell you than Y is almost always at least 10x greater than X.  Ok now someone dies and it's because of GBS. Who has "sole responsibility"?  As everyone has been vaccinated at best the government could only claim X/Y+X responsibility per death.   But wait there's more!  That is only the AVERAGE amount of correlation! In other words you expect those values to converge on that ratio over time but there's nothing saying that in a given year that would be the actual ratio.  In fact somewhat paradoxically you expect them to vary.   So some years there all the GBS deaths will be due to some other infection.   Your ideas about "sole responsibility" are fine on the playground when causality is considerably more clear but in any sufficiently complicated system the math says "fuck off".

I understand I may come off as a bit of a hard ass

No offense, the word I would use is "idiot".  You have strong opinions without strong evidence.

As well recently my daughter needed to get the MMR shot for her work experience at the hospital and I was worried as any good parent should be however not so much that I didn't allow her to get the vaccination.

Unless your child is doing hospital work at the age of 4 then you've denied her MMR until then.  Why?  What credible source of information shows a problem with MMR?  The answer is pretty much zero.  Making a decision to not immunize against a deadly (4x more deaths than influenza) exceptionally contagious (10-15x more than influenza) perfectly controllable (~100% effectiveness with 2-doses) disease.  Is a strong belief and you did it based on exceptionally weak evidence.

I also quizzed the health nurse who was basically incompetent as I knew magnitudes more than she did about the shot she was giving which was also disturbing.

All that makes you is a bully.

we are not the real problem because we have actually taken the time to debate the real issues and try to make informed decisions as best we can.

I simply don't truck with the "all we need to do is debate" crowd.  The real problem, the one that might prompt mandatory vaccination - although I doubt it - is measles and people who make the decision to allow their children the opportunity to get the measles are definitely part of that problem.

Obviously if my daughter was vaccinated then I do not consider my views extreme nor my beliefs strong

Uh again is your daughter an infant?  I'm sure a lot of extremists think their views are "mainstream".

it's just that most of the people I meet are incompetent and I don't trust them.

See you are a good illustration with what is wrong with the way people teach critical thinking.  It's not about trying to find problems with other peoples ideas.  It's about finding problems with your own.  If you are not spending considerably more time trying to falsify your own beliefs then all you are doing is preserving your own prejudices.