Vaccinations; recent developments

[Magluvin]

OK, I have a question:

If the virus dies once your body has overcome it with antibodies, then why are they saying on the radio ads (public service) that if you had chicken pox as a child, part of that is dormant inside you and will cause shingles in adults over 60 in something like 50% of the cases?  Now they recommend an anti shingles vaccination.

I am just asking here as I thought this was weird.

Bill

"According to the new study; however, getting vaccinated with the chicken pox vaccine, which first became commercially available in the U.S. back in 1995, could damage this natural immune cycle. Based on the available data, getting vaccinated for chicken pox may end up blocking the mechanisms the body uses to develop its own natural immunity to both chicken pox and shingles, causing much worse infection later on down the road.

A five-year-old girl, it turns out, was found recently to have developed severe symptoms of shingles not long after being vaccinated for chicken pox. Researchers from Helios Klinikum in Germany conducted a direct immunofluorescence assay on the child to look for evidence of the vaccine strain in the infection, and found that the vaccine strain had, indeed, caused the child to become infected with the much more severe shingles virus.

http://www.naturalnews.com/038997_chicken_pox_vaccine_shingles_epidemic.html


Mags
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[sarkeizen]

First of all, after all of this debate, I don't see you as a "professional".

So what happened to you being absolutely certain I'm a nurse.

Second, you cannot be an expert over everything!medical stuff lol.

I never said I was.  I just happen to know more than you do on a number of things.

well well well, are you telling me that is my body gets a dangerous virus, it will leave my body FOR EVER with medicine as it never got in my body? lol.

If you recall you were talking about a few (stupid things):

i) Primarily you were talking about shedding viruses after vaccination.  It's pretty difficult to shed something with much chance of infecting anyone if you're not making any.   Even infecting someone after being vaccinated with a live virus is pretty difficult.  VSV is found in stool for about six weeks after that it's undetectable by any methods we have today.

ii) Secondly you seemed to be pretending that you are constantly replicating viruses and your immune system is just barely keeping them under control.  Again if this was true for every virus you would be creating antibodies for every serotype you encounter for all time.  However again if what you say was true then someone who is immunocompromised would immediately get all their childhood diseases.  This doesn't happen.

Point being, HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THE VIRUS DIES inside the body?

Serology samples.  If you've never seen one or know how "forensic" typing is done (i.e. what strain did person X have).  If you had you would know how difficult it is to see a virus in someones body after recovery.  Instead we look at antibodies.  Replication rate of a lot of viruses is high which is why you get sick so quickly after exposure.  If the virus was active in your body it would be easy to see.  A virus like the flu produces at a rate of about 10000 to 1.  This is why you get sick so quickly.  It only takes 3 "generations" before there are as many viruses as there are white blood cells.

How do you know that the introduced virus did not mutate to be a different virus?

It may have but the mutation - like most mutations - is well within the serotype.  If it wasn't you would still be sick or if you're talking about immunization you would get sick which never happens with inactivated vaccines and rarely happens with attenuated vaccines.

How do you know if that flu virus cannot mutate to be a deadlier virus?

It can but it's far more likely to happen from that one person who gets sick rather than billions of people immunized.

[sarkeizen]

If the virus dies once your body has overcome it with antibodies, then why are they saying on the radio ads (public service) that if you had chicken pox as a child, part of that is dormant inside you and will cause shingles in adults over 60 in something like 50% of the cases?  Now they recommend an anti shingles vaccination.

I am just asking here as I thought this was weird.

VSV is an interesting case.  So viruses that encounter antibodies get broken down, others will discorporate on their own (eventually).  The reason I believe you can get shingles is because the virus exists in the cytoplasm of infected cells *without* reaching the nucleus (this is how it works with HSV so as a sister disease it seems reasonable that VSV works the same way).  So the virus is not detected by antibodies (because it's in a cell) but it is also not replicating (so it's not mutating and you're not shedding it). 

The real question is why does it start to replicate again at all?  Often people say things like it comes back when your immune system is weak.  This is probably a little misleading.  While I can't say for absolute certain what seems more likely is the infection rate is just much slower when it's in nerve cells.  However every so often one of them "pops" and starts replicating.  This results in your antibodies cleaning those viruses up.   Over time you will lose the antibodies for the VSV serotype.  The next time one of these pop.  You get an infection and your body has to ramp up antibody production all over again because these cells have CNS related function.  The result is a more CNS related disease.

However this rate is probably glacially slow.  Again immunocompromized patients (e.g. chemo, AIDS) don't immediately get shingles (rates are higher though - someone with AIDS is about 10x more likely to get shingles).

[sarkeizen]

"According to the new study; however, getting vaccinated with the chicken pox vaccine, which first became commercially available in the U.S. back in 1995, could damage this natural immune cycle. Based on the available data, getting vaccinated for chicken pox may end up blocking the mechanisms the body uses to develop its own natural immunity to both chicken pox and shingles, causing much worse infection later on down the road.

Goldman certainly was trying to raise a stir.  His study was done in 2008 - which means that he was dealing with data from the 90's when uptake was in the 25% range.  He also simply looked at crude rates which means it would have been hard to adjust for confounders and did not take disease severity into account.  Often vaccinations will result in a less sever reaction when there is a breakthrough infection.

There have been studies with better controls done in Germany and Australia 

Here they looked at hospitalization rates.  Which were the same or lower for older folks in populations where there was high coverage and confounders were controlled for.

But again....you could have done this research but why would you when you're completely uninterested in anything other than your own prejudical ideas.

I notice that you won't say what evidence will convince you that vaccines are safe and effective.  Kind of suspicious.

[Pirate88179]

VSV is an interesting case.  So viruses that encounter antibodies get broken down, others will discorporate on their own (eventually).  The reason I believe you can get shingles is because the virus exists in the cytoplasm of infected cells *without* reaching the nucleus (this is how it works with HSV so as a sister disease it seems reasonable that VSV works the same way).  So the virus is not detected by antibodies (because it's in a cell) but it is also not replicating (so it's not mutating and you're not shedding it). 

The real question is why does it start to replicate again at all?  Often people say things like it comes back when your immune system is weak.  This is probably a little misleading.  While I can't say for absolute certain what seems more likely is the infection rate is just much slower when it's in nerve cells.  However every so often one of them "pops" and starts replicating.  This results in your antibodies cleaning those viruses up.   Over time you will lose the antibodies for the VSV serotype.  The next time one of these pop.  You get an infection and your body has to ramp up antibody production all over again because these cells have CNS related function.  The result is a more CNS related disease.

However this rate is probably glacially slow.  Again immunocompromized patients (e.g. chemo, AIDS) don't immediately get shingles (rates are higher though - someone with AIDS is about 10x more likely to get shingles).

Well, that is very interesting.  I had no idea about this which is why I asked.  I wonder if there are other possible explanations?  I mean, i don't know.  I just keep hearing these public service announcements and I was thinking .....how could this be?  I wonder what the trigger point is?  Age?  Time in the body? (like a bomb's timing device) Or, exposure to someone that has shingles and, since your defense is down after 60, you "catch" it like a cold or flu?

Bill