HHO some thoughts on how to make it work.

[Fester]

I have been researching for a while now on the HHO question. Being a car guy, there are several things that do not agree with me about HHO set ups.

I think most of the sites promoting HHO are scams. They do not follow conventional wisdom for engine dynamics for the most part. creating electricity from an alternator is highly inefficient to begin with. At the same time, work is robbed from the engine itself to create even less efficient energy. The best analogy would be a supercharger. While it could provide benefit, robbing peter to pay paul isnt the best way to accomplish things.

Turbocharging has proven to be a more efficient enhancer to an engine. Using waste heat/gasses to get more from the engine. I have yet to see anyone hook and alternater or a real generator to the exhaust side of the turbo for electrical generation.

Digging through the web I have found a few claims. The first being that based on flash point, hydrogen has an "effective" octane rating of about 50. this is not a very good thing. However based on its burn characteristics it acts like a high octane fuel burning. If this is true, then this is great for an engine. This would allow someone to raise the compression ratio of the engine to get more power out of it, replacing the loss fromm a inferior fuel in terms of btu's.

What i dont see from the web is the effects of adding "pure" O2 to the engine. the best analogy for this is using NO2 for a power addder.  I have viewed some claims that the added O2 does reduce the NOx emissions.

My mechanical mind thinks the whole HHO thing is doable,with a specific engine designed for it. however it will not replace gas(petrol).

I think anyone serious about HHO for their vehicle would have to first dyno an oem vehicle. Create/ install the turbo generator mod. dyno vehicle again.
The dyno results would have to show one thing- the same peak torque at the same rpm as the oem set up ( tuned for a lesser gas consumption in the fuel delivery system).  an obvious margin would have to be acceptable. But at that point the margin could be diminished by raising the compression in the cylinder, this could make up for the acceptable power loss.

the dyno results would be the deal breaker for the current work robbing systems people use. Current systems out there reduced the efficiency from the start. the only issue with the turbo style generation i can see is when gas is cut from the system the expanded gases(exhaust) dynamics change. this could produce a diminishing returns effect, basically confirming the law of thermodynamics.

In a nutshell the best analogy i can come up with is a reversed forced induction of an engine. Ford is doing this now. By using forced induction they are getting more HP from smaller displacement engines. HHO research seems to be akin to this but different. Using waste energy to create fuel, to make a large displacement engine use to fuel of a smaller displacement.

the turbo generator presents a few challenges on its own. Making a generator that can live at 10k plus rpms, or getting a turbo way oversized for the engine to reduce its rpms. All while trying to manage torque from the turbine to the generator. I would think if it could be done the automotive industry would have done it already to free the engine of its electrical energy robbing equipment.

Awesome? Crazy? Discuss.

[Madeo]

I have done simple experiments with HHO before,  but the gas itself explodes (often with tremendous force) when fire is introduced.  I realized this can't be good for the current engine designs. Gasoline burns/ignite, but it doesn't explode like HHO. If HHO is used to fuel engines today,  I wouldn't be surprised people would have problems with engine knocking... etc.

However,  some people theorized that by introducing droplets of water would provide most of the heavy lifting instead of the HHO gas itself. The water droplets at that pressure and temperature would expand (flash steam) like what they are doing with some of the GEET setups. Theoretically, the amount of HHO gas required would be minimal.

I really believe HHO as a replacement fuel is possible, but it is currently beyond my expertise.  GEET is doable.   

[Fester]

 I would have to say when replacing a hypothetical 10% or less of the gasoline with a faster burning fuel, the mixture would give a median result. As to say, it wouldnt ruin the slow burn properties of gasoline. Diminish yes, but not totally.  How much can be replaced? I dont know.

there is no mechanical advantage i know of that steam can create better than gasoline. steam is less efficient.  Water injection is used on high compression motors for knock control during compression.

Something else i thought of at work tonight. A turbo/turbine as the driver for the generator, is by nature variable. As engine rpm increases so does the turbine, as well as the generator. Could have production level change with rpms.

[MarkE]

I would have to say when replacing a hypothetical 10% or less of the gasoline with a faster burning fuel, the mixture would give a median result. As to say, it wouldnt ruin the slow burn properties of gasoline. Diminish yes, but not totally.  How much can be replaced? I dont know.

there is no mechanical advantage i know of that steam can create better than gasoline. steam is less efficient.  Water injection is used on high compression motors for knock control during compression.

Something else i thought of at work tonight. A turbo/turbine as the driver for the generator, is by nature variable. As engine rpm increases so does the turbine, as well as the generator. Could have production level change with rpms.

Hydrogen burns much faster than gasoline, and burns at a leaner mixture than gasoline.  Both of those are advantages when one wants to run lean.  The ideal burn is one where the flame propagates just short of the speed of sound such that the pressure begins building just barely before TDC and is at its maximum from all of the fuel having burned by a bit after TDC.  Faster burn makes it easier to set the ignition closer and closer to TDC.  A slow burn forces much more compromise on how far to advance the timing to get mechanical advantage near the top of the power stroke versus added pumping effort at the end of the compression stroke.

HHO cleans up carbon deposits.  Adding a modest amount of HHO to an old engine will after a few weeks clean the engine up and that is helpful for pollution and economy.  The newer or better cared for the engine, the less advantage HHO offers.

[MarkE]

I have been researching for a while now on the HHO question. Being a car guy, there are several things that do not agree with me about HHO set ups.

I think most of the sites promoting HHO are scams. They do not follow conventional wisdom for engine dynamics for the most part. creating electricity from an alternator is highly inefficient to begin with. At the same time, work is robbed from the engine itself to create even less efficient energy. The best analogy would be a supercharger. While it could provide benefit, robbing peter to pay paul isnt the best way to accomplish things.

Turbocharging has proven to be a more efficient enhancer to an engine. Using waste heat/gasses to get more from the engine. I have yet to see anyone hook and alternater or a real generator to the exhaust side of the turbo for electrical generation.

Digging through the web I have found a few claims. The first being that based on flash point, hydrogen has an "effective" octane rating of about 50. this is not a very good thing. However based on its burn characteristics it acts like a high octane fuel burning. If this is true, then this is great for an engine. This would allow someone to raise the compression ratio of the engine to get more power out of it, replacing the loss fromm a inferior fuel in terms of btu's.

What i dont see from the web is the effects of adding "pure" O2 to the engine. the best analogy for this is using NO2 for a power addder.  I have viewed some claims that the added O2 does reduce the NOx emissions.

My mechanical mind thinks the whole HHO thing is doable,with a specific engine designed for it. however it will not replace gas(petrol).

I think anyone serious about HHO for their vehicle would have to first dyno an oem vehicle. Create/ install the turbo generator mod. dyno vehicle again.
The dyno results would have to show one thing- the same peak torque at the same rpm as the oem set up ( tuned for a lesser gas consumption in the fuel delivery system).  an obvious margin would have to be acceptable. But at that point the margin could be diminished by raising the compression in the cylinder, this could make up for the acceptable power loss.

the dyno results would be the deal breaker for the current work robbing systems people use. Current systems out there reduced the efficiency from the start. the only issue with the turbo style generation i can see is when gas is cut from the system the expanded gases(exhaust) dynamics change. this could produce a diminishing returns effect, basically confirming the law of thermodynamics.

In a nutshell the best analogy i can come up with is a reversed forced induction of an engine. Ford is doing this now. By using forced induction they are getting more HP from smaller displacement engines. HHO research seems to be akin to this but different. Using waste energy to create fuel, to make a large displacement engine use to fuel of a smaller displacement.

the turbo generator presents a few challenges on its own. Making a generator that can live at 10k plus rpms, or getting a turbo way oversized for the engine to reduce its rpms. All while trying to manage torque from the turbine to the generator. I would think if it could be done the automotive industry would have done it already to free the engine of its electrical energy robbing equipment.

Awesome? Crazy? Discuss.

I think the reason that you don't see turbo driven alternators is:  High cost to keep the magnetic material below its Curie temperature and the rectifier diodes cool, versus very limited expected benefit.  I think the reason that you don't see HHO in mass produced cars and trucks is that the benefits rapidly diminish if the engine is in good condition and computer controlled.

Controlling the alternator torque is easy to do.  The alternator performs a lot like a dynamometer brake.  Modulating the field winding or running a PWM on the output can provide fast and tight torque control.