Lenz free generator

[allcanadian]

@I_ron

Below is a better example of my switching on Phil Wood's 16/24 somaloy cored Motor. It is an hall effect switched, to 7555 one shots and CD4011 lock out logic to a MC33883 H bridge pre driver. 20 pin soic's are just a bit beyond my board making skills so I have taken to using break out boards... and this helps in trouble shooting also as they are pluggable.

Hall effect/one shot's are the way to go in my opinion and I have used hall effect switches which have pretty decent rise/fall times on their own. Lately I found it easier to just use a cheap micro-controller such as the Arduino Pro mini 328 to build custom waveforms and control switching on the software end. Getting too old for that bread boarding stuff which takes way to long and it is too hard to modify the parameters.

However for the Zero Force what I had in mind was opto's to a gate driver and mosfet... on a bread board, nothing to out of the ordinary

That sounds like a good plan and an easy way to set duration is to use two sensor/switches. Generally we have issues with rise/fall times relating to the semiconductors used however if one switch is used to turn on the coil and another separate switch is used to turn it off then the switch separation determines the duration. Here is the trick... if the second switch is on the other side of the rotor then the on/off switching can occur within nearly the same time frame giving switching durations we cannot achieve any other way. You see it takes the semiconductor lag times out of the equation because they can be compensated for by the physical switch overlap and the fact there are now two switches in the circuit. Theoretically the off switch could even be activated before the on switch if the semiconductor lag is slightly greater on the off switching and the difference in lag is now the actual switching duration, lol. Seemingly impossible problems require creative solutions.

I learned many neat tricks testing different motor/generator geometries, invented a lot of stuff to solve whatever problems happened to pop up along the way and had a lot of fun doing it.

AC

[tinman]

@I_ron
I'm not sure if you know this but I built and tested the motor you are trying to build as well as a generator based on the same principals around 5 years ago. I built and tested many variations of both and posted some of the designs in this forum. I built one similar motor in which the driving coil could not be induced by the rotor magnet in any way which was kind of neat.

Here is what I found concerning the motor your trying to build, first there is no flow and there are no flux lines and there are no North/South poles as these are simply notations. The field has direction we call polarity and it has field density we call strength or magnitude. In your video you simply demonstrated the fact that opposite poles attract and like poles repel. What makes this setup different however is the fact that the rotor magnet is simultaneously in attraction and repulsion with only one stator coil but utilizing the field from both ends of the coil in the same instance.



What I can tell you is your not going anywhere using that infernal manual switch shown in the video, the switching must be of the proper magnitude, timing and duration with respect to the rotor magnet.

AC

Now why do you suppose the strongest force is in the middle?, because the magnet is interacting with both poles of the coil simultaneously not only one. Why does the rotor magnet lock up at the coil ends?, when the coil is off the magnetic field from the magnet couples to the core material which ends at the end of the core. When the coil is on the magnetic field from the magnet couples to the nearest unlike pole and is repelled from the nearest like pole. You can prevent the lock up at the coil poles by momentarily switching off the current at the poles and you may also reverse the coil current after the magnet has left the coil poles to increase the force on the rotor. Why switch at the center of the stator coil or supposed bloch wall?, because the rotor magnet interacts with both stator coil poles equally following the inverse square law. As well we should note that at the exact center of the stator core the field from the rotor magnet should diverge towards both ends of the stator core equally provided the coil was not energized prior. Does this matter?... maybe it does maybe it doesn't.

If that was the case,then the magnet should see the same force anywhere along that coil,because even though it may be further away from one pole,it will be closer to the other,and so if you want to use your inverse square law,then the force applied to the magnet should be equal anywhere along that coils length--but it is no. The greatest force against that magnet will be at the center of the coil,not at either end.
Inverse square law-->The intensity of the influence at any given radius r is the source strength divided by the area of the sphere. Being strictly geometric in its origin, the inverse square law applies to diverse phenomena. Point sources of gravitational force, electric field, light, sound or radiation obey the inverse square law.

Below is a quick sketch of field strength of a coil when a current is applied.
With the zero force motor(as is with any other PM DC motor) you would want to switch the coil on when the magnet on the rotor is a point 3,and switch of when the magnet is at point 5.
If a thin pancake type coil was made(the secondary)to slide over the primary(coil depicted),then the greatest output from the secondary-when the primary was pulsed with a DC current,or an AC current is applied to the primary,will be when the secondary is at point 4.

The mid point of a PM or an electromagnet is not a bloch wall,nor is it void of a magnetic field.
It is in fact the point where the magnetic field is greatest.


Brad

[allcanadian]

@tinman

If that was the case,then the magnet should see the same force anywhere along that coil,because even though it may be further away from one pole,it will be closer to the other,and so if you want to use your inverse square law,then the force applied to the magnet should be equal anywhere along that coils length--but it is no. The greatest force against that magnet will be at the center of the coil,not at either end.

I know what your saying however the devil is always in the details. A magnet is not a coil, a straight coil as you have depicted is not a semi-circular coil following the circumference of the rotor... all act very different under different circumstances. In your picture of a straight coil with a circular rotor then yes I agree with you. If it were a straight coil on a core then yes I agree, if it was a semi-circular coil then probably no and a semi-circular coil on a core then probably no.

[size=0px]Inverse square law-->[/size][size=0px]The intensity of the influence at any given radius r is the source strength divided by the area of the sphere. Being strictly geometric in its origin, the inverse square law applies to diverse phenomena. Point sources of gravitational force, electric field, light, sound or radiation obey the inverse square law.[/size]

Realistically this is just a fancy way of saying the change in field strength falls off faster than the change in distance that's all.

Below is a quick sketch of field strength of a coil when a current is applied.
With the zero force motor(as is with any other PM DC motor) you would want to switch the coil on when the magnet on the rotor is a point 3,and switch of when the magnet is at point 5.

I would agree with that based on the picture you posted with reservations. If the field density of the coil is low then we may have flux leakage through the coil turns and the magnet will not couple to the field of the whole coil due to the inverse square law. I believe this may be how we differ in opinion as you seem to see everything as black and white where I see nothing but shades of grey. If the rotor magnet is a weak ceramic then the coil field may dominate the equation and if the rotor magnet is the best neo magnet money can buy then it may dominate again depending on the coil field density and other variables. In effect your making generalizations I cannot decipher... I need specifics, I'm not the amazing kreskin.

The mid point of a PM or an electromagnet is not a bloch wall,nor is it void of a magnetic field.
It is in fact the point where the magnetic field is greatest.

That is your opinion, I'm working to prove you and others wrong. I have in fact proven the neutral point with respect to the electric field therefore I see no reason I cannot prove it with magnetic and gravic fields. Don't get me wrong, you make valid points I just don't believe them based on the lack of details and what I have seen for myself.


AC

[EMJunkie]

If that was the case,then the magnet should see the same force anywhere along that coil,because even though it may be further away from one pole,it will be closer to the other,and so if you want to use your inverse square law,then the force applied to the magnet should be equal anywhere along that coils length--but it is no. The greatest force against that magnet will be at the center of the coil,not at either end.
Inverse square law-->The intensity of the influence at any given radius r is the source strength divided by the area of the sphere. Being strictly geometric in its origin, the inverse square law applies to diverse phenomena. Point sources of gravitational force, electric field, light, sound or radiation obey the inverse square law.

Below is a quick sketch of field strength of a coil when a current is applied.
With the zero force motor(as is with any other PM DC motor) you would want to switch the coil on when the magnet on the rotor is a point 3,and switch of when the magnet is at point 5.
If a thin pancake type coil was made(the secondary)to slide over the primary(coil depicted),then the greatest output from the secondary-when the primary was pulsed with a DC current,or an AC current is applied to the primary,will be when the secondary is at point 4.

The mid point of a PM or an electromagnet is not a bloch wall,nor is it void of a magnetic field.
It is in fact the point where the magnetic field is greatest.


Brad

I agree the "Force" at the central point of the Magnet, Permanent or Electromagnet, is the greatest force in the System.

I am not sure I would call this "Force", the Magnetic Field however. We can see the Magnetic Field lines from the pole, are definitely an Inverse Square phenomena, the Conical structure shows us this, see Image Below:

What does this mean, a few points of view can be taken here.

Well, a Fire Hose, full flow, the water force is very much greater in Strength and Velocity at the Nozzle, than 40 feet away where it hits its target!!! This is the Inverse Square Law. For example, if we increase pressure at the Nozzle, we increase the Distance that the Water can Travel over the course of Time!

The Thrust Equation is an example of this:

F = (m dot * V)e - (m dot * V)0 + (pe - p0) * Ae

or to simplify:

Force = mass * acceleration

The Force F is only defined at the Point of the Nozzle though! So the Inverse Square Law gives us the Force F at a distance:

B = μ₀ /2 π I^'/r

But the Strength is H, not B of the Magnetic Field! Well H is simply:

H = B/μ₀

This gives us the Conical Structure we see in the Ferro Fluid, the Greater the Magnetic Field Strength (H) the bigger the Spikes we get!!!

So, the Force F we see at the Center of the Permanent or Electromagnet, is not the Magnetic Field, as the Ferrofluid Image above shows. This Force, it not showing Magnetic Field Line properties, it is a part of the Magnet to be explored further, and our very own Earth may give us some Ideas:

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

P.S: Ferro Fluid is a Mass and thus will not show the true line of force due to Gravity, the weight on the Fluid will reduce the Conical length some. Of course, all this is my opinion from my research.

[i_ron]

Well here it is running


https://youtu.be/SGRBk6lWAf4


Ron