Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?

[MileHigh]

Picowatt:

Exactly, you can't trigger on something that itself might be changing in phase if you are looking for phase shifts.  I made a similar recommendation a while back.

I already see a lot of positives coming from this ongoing debate.  Experimenters are starting to think, and to think critically about what they are doing and what they are sayng.  The catch-all term "delayed Lenz effect" was holding them back and preventing them from truly thinking.

I also note that the term "Lenz" goes much further than that, and it's also corrupting the debate and corrupting the thinking processes of the experimenters for other things.

"Lenz" in the context of the forum and in general just refers to the "Lenz drag" (the mechanical drag) that a rotor experiences when it passes a generator coil that is driving a load.  That is the generally accepted usage of the term.

But people use terms like "Lenz free transformer" and "Lenz free generator."  There is a related term, "Generator no effect counter BEMF."  I don't even understand what the third term is supposed to mean.

So to expand the debate and the thought processes a bit, people have to start using the proper terms, and stop making up terms that include the "magic word" "Lenz."

There are words and proper terms and concepts to describe what you are trying to accomplish.  If in doubt discuss it on the forum and figure it out.

Again, there is no such thing as a "Lenz free transformer" in the sense that there is no mechanical drag associated with a transformer.  If you are alluding to the fact that the transformer is supposed to not show an electrical load on the primary while driving a load on the secondary (a hypothetical over unity device) then come up with a term that properly describes that.  Something like "minimal primary load transformer" or something.  Just don't use the term "Lenz" when it clearly does not apply.

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

Tinman:

Below is a pic of the setup(1st pic)
2nd pic is of the two coils and two C core's.
1st scope shot is with a 10 ohm load(resistor) across the secondary coil(back coil furtherest away from the rotor). This is the yellow trace. The primary coil(one nearest to the rotor) has a 100 ohm resistor across it at all times,and this is the blue trace on the scope.
2nd scope shot is with a 100 ohm load(resistor) across the secondary coil.

So who here can tell me why the secondary coil is leading in phase to that of the primary coil?. Why is there a phase lag on the coil closest to the magnet's?How is the magnetic field phase being delayed in the primary when it is that coil that is closest to the magnets on the rotor?.

I don't have the answer for you here and I didn't read all the postings so I am not sure if this is an open or closed investigation for you.

I just want to discuss the process for you.  Recently Gotoluc saw a 90 degree phase lag on the output of a generator coil when the load resistor on the generator coil was only one ohm.  Right away he said, "delayed Lenz effect."  I asked him to increase the value of the load resistor and as he did that the phase delay disappeared and went towards zero degrees.  It looked like his setup was (AC EMF source) -> (unknown inductance) -> (load resistor).  With a setup like that you will get the results that he saw on his scope.

The moral of the story is you can take your original data and then start to develop a plan for figuring out what is going on.  You see a different phase shift between a 10-ohm resistor and a 100-ohm resistor?  Your setup is a bit more complicated but you can develop some kind of process for investigating that.  Let's assume that you can keep your rotor speed constant.  So what happens as you vary the values of one, the other, or both resistances?  Do you see any trending in the phase shift as you change the values of the resistances?  These are the kinds of things that you have to do to figure out what is going on.   We collectively have to get past the times where people say, "Look, I just proved that something unusual is going on" or "I just proved the 'delayed Lens effect' is real."  The way circuits like this is often work is a function of frequency, resistance, capacitance, and inductance.  You have to explore the variations and make your own notes and observations to understand what might be going on.  This is getting a bit deeper into how electronic circuits work.  Hopefully, you have fun in the process of doing the investigation!

MileHigh

[lzbin80]

It's always the NATURE that misunderstood.

[MarkE]

TM, nice going there mate...

As long as we use the right mixture of the ingredients we will have the Delayed Lenz Effect...

Here is one tiny coil showing this effect,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlCyY5hp6HQ&index=56&list=UUNk6nZuUrTLRnp__hAgAqjw

Here are two of the same tiny coil showing this effect,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwPDDvzZFXQ&list=UUNk6nZuUrTLRnp__hAgAqjw

As one can see i've taken another route to achieve this Delayed Lenz Effect but it is being done with the same ingredients but the difference is in thier amount...
It's like baking a cake, you can use the same ingredients but if you don't follow the amount needed you'll end up with a brick or a sponge...lol...

If the claim is that the coils can be configured such that the right hand wheel is actually operating as a motor then you need to put a torque transducer between that wheel and the rest of the system.

[tinman]

Tinman:

I don't have the answer for you here and I didn't read all the postings so I am not sure if this is an open or closed investigation for you.

I just want to discuss the process for you.  Recently Gotoluc saw a 90 degree phase lag on the output of a generator coil when the load resistor on the generator coil was only one ohm.  Right away he said, "delayed Lenz effect."  I asked him to increase the value of the load resistor and as he did that the phase delay disappeared and went towards zero degrees.  It looked like his setup was (AC EMF source) -> (unknown inductance) -> (load resistor).  With a setup like that you will get the results that he saw on his scope.

The moral of the story is you can take your original data and then start to develop a plan for figuring out what is going on.  You see a different phase shift between a 10-ohm resistor and a 100-ohm resistor?  Your setup is a bit more complicated but you can develop some kind of process for investigating that.  Let's assume that you can keep your rotor speed constant.  So what happens as you vary the values of one, the other, or both resistances?  Do you see any trending in the phase shift as you change the values of the resistances?  These are the kinds of things that you have to do to figure out what is going on.   We collectively have to get past the times where people say, "Look, I just proved that something unusual is going on" or "I just proved the 'delayed Lens effect' is real."  The way circuits like this is often work is a function of frequency, resistance, capacitance, and inductance.  You have to explore the variations and make your own notes and observations to understand what might be going on.  This is getting a bit deeper into how electronic circuits work.  Hopefully, you have fun in the process of doing the investigation!

MileHigh

MH
Regardless of load resistance,why is there any phase difference in this simple setup?. It opperates at a very low frequency(101Hz),and i am using ferite cores of the same type with a 1 to 1 coupling.
Some things you may have missed.
the phase difference grows larger as i decrease the load(increase the resistance value)on the secondary coil,un like Luc's setup where as you had to increase the load to bring the two back into phase.

So the next thing i tried was to use my SG to power the primary using an AC sine wave so as to obtain the same P/P voltage across the primary coil. I ran it up to 150KHz,and no phase shift what so ever-regardless of load on the secondary. The effect(what ever it is-->and i havent called it this lenz delay,only that it seems that the magnetic field is some how being delayed or advanced to one of the coil's) only seems present when the PM's are used to generate the current flow in the coils.

I am going to do what PW suggested,and put a small coil on the setup to trigger from. I have a feeling that each phase is going to move -one advancing,and one retarding.