Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy

[Void]

Hi MarkE. I measured the input current and voltage exactly as shown in the attached schematic.
Ignore the output power measurements shown in the drawing, as I am only concerned with the input phase measurement here...
My secondary is connected into the load in an unusual way, but the load is just two diodes in parallel
as shown in the schematic. There was no possibility of ground loops from the secondary circuit back to
the function generator because I had no connections on the secondary circuit to scope probes or anything
else at all that is grounded, other than secondary coils, and connecting wires and the LED load.
The way that the scope probes are connected on the primary is exactly as shown in the attached schematic.
Just straight forward measurements on the primary.

My reason for posting the scope screen shot of the measured input waveforms was really just to see if anyone could
think of any reason why a passive transformer circuit with a LED load on the secondary could generate an input phase
shift greater than -90 to +90 degrees, but I think we agree this should not happen in a passive transformer circuit that only
has inductances and a LED load? I am more interested in the theoretical view rather than an analysis of my measurements,
as the measurement of the input current and voltage is quite straight forward.

Let me ask the question a bit different way, just in general, if you are driving a circuit having one or more combinations of only passive components consisting
of only inductance and capacitance and resistance in any combination, is it possible to ever get a phase shift on the input current of greater than -90 to +90 degrees?
In other words, could any passive circuit containing only inductance, capacitance and resistance in any combination (with LEDs for a load) ever conceivably produce a
180 degree phase shift on the input current? At this point I am just trying to gauge what should be considered possible with passive components, whether it includes
transformer windings or not.

All the best...

[MarkE]

First things first:  Passive circuits absorb, convey, or store energy.  Phase shift is limited to +/- 90 degrees no matter what nonsense Bill Alek professes.

If you want to make certain that you've connected your instruments the way you think you have, then an asymmetric waveform is a useful tool.

Your schematic implies some issues with convention.  See the drawing below.

[TinselKoala]

Yes, I think that MarkE has got it. We've encountered this before, actually. The I_sense waveform should be inverted in the scope to give the true phase relationship.

Look at it this way. Consider the case with straight DC supplied from the power source. In that case it should be obvious that the voltage at point 2 is _higher_ than the voltage at point 0. So the CSR "V_drop"  actually looks like a "rise" with the probes connected as shown.

To measure current correctly through a CSR as a voltage _drop_, then the probe's reference must be connected on the high side of the CSR and the probe tip on the low side. But you can't do that in the circuit as shown since you have to measure the total V_in across the whole circuit with the V probe's reference at the lowest point, point 0, and you also must connect the CSR V_drop reference here as well. So to give the correct phase of the current waveform with the CSR probe connected as shown, that channel's signal needs to be inverted in the scope.

I think, anyhow.

[MarkE]

Yes, I think that MarkE has got it. We've encountered this before, actually. The I_sense waveform should be inverted in the scope to give the true phase relationship.

Look at it this way. Consider the case with straight DC supplied from the power source. In that case it should be obvious that the voltage at point 2 is _higher_ than the voltage at point 0. So the CSR "V_drop"  actually looks like a "rise" with the probes connected as shown.

To measure current correctly through a CSR as a voltage _drop_, then the probe's reference must be connected on the high side of the CSR and the probe tip on the low side. But you can't do that in the circuit as shown since you have to measure the total V_in across the whole circuit with the V probe's reference at the lowest point, point 0, and you also must connect the CSR V_drop reference here as well. So to give the correct phase of the current waveform with the CSR probe connected as shown, that channel's signal needs to be inverted in the scope.

I think, anyhow.

I disagree.  What happens with the probes in the position shown is that the load power measurement is artificially increased by the power dissipated in the CSR.  Had the scope comon been placed at node 2, then for power into the load, the signs of the voltage and current would oppose, and under those conditions, channel 2 should be inverted. 

As it is shown above and in void's drawing, both channels should be uninverted:  Voltage drop from 1 - 2, and 1 - 0, matches polarity with voltage drop from 2 - 0, corresponding to  power transferred through the transformer primary.  That should limit -90 < phase shift < 90.  With no load connected, the phase shift should be well above 45 degrees at moderate frequencies, such as 1kHz.  What Void is using for a CSR and how he has connected to it is potentially an issue. 

[Void]

First things first:  Passive circuits absorb, convey, or store energy.  Phase shift is limited to +/- 90 degrees no matter what nonsense Bill Alek professes.
If you want to make certain that you've connected your instruments the way you think you have, then an asymmetric waveform is a useful tool.
Your schematic implies some issues with convention.  See the drawing below.

Hi MarkE. I think we are on the same page as far as theoretically what range of phase shift can
be expected on the input current to a passive AC circuit. However, in practice, as I have shown in my
previously posted scope screen shot, phase shifts on the current up to 180 degrees can be measured in
certain circumstances. Whether that measured phase shift is representative of what is really going on in the circuit is
another matter however. I am inclined to think that the 180 phase shift I am measuring here is not representative
of what is really going on, despite the fact that this is what the scope does measure, as I have already mentioned. 

As far as how I have the scope probes connected on the primary, this is the standard way
of measuring phase shift in an AC circuit, and I have been measuring phase shift for years now.
My scope probe connection arrangement is not the issue. In the schematic I posted, the arrows drawn on the
schematic represent the scope probes, and the arrowheads are where the scope probe tips are connected into the circuit.

Thanks for the comments guys. I will continue to experiment with this sort of setup and see where it leads.
This is just one experiment I have done amongst many along these lines, and I have seen odd phase measurements above
90 degrees on a number of occasions in different setups over the years. I think anyone who has done any degree of experimentation
along these lines with transformer circuits with various winding arrangements could also confirm seeing these odd phase shifts under
certain circumstances. There may be a simple explanation, but it is not the scope probe placement, nor is it likely due
to the scope probe or scope probe leads picking up fields around wires and windings in this case, as I have taken careful steps to
rule that out here. Thanks again for the feedback.
All the best...