Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy

[tinman]

Have to take off to work shortly,but will do some more testing tonight.
But before i go,i will leave you all with the picture below.

Dose this picture(and description from wiki) accurately describe the fields around the toroid transformer?. If so,then a current must be flowing through the primary in order for an E field to be produced. If this is the case,then the EMF across a secondary(as in my setup) should never lead the primary current-->correct?.

Quote wiki:--This figure shows the half section of a toroidal transformer. Quasi-static conditions are assumed, so the phase of each field is everywhere the same. The transformer, its windings and all things are distributed symmetrically about the axis of symmetry. The windings are such that there is no circumferential current. The requirements are met for full internal confinement of the B field due to the primary current. The core and primary winding are represented by the gray-brown torus. The primary winding is not shown, but the current in the winding at the cross section surface is shown as gold (or orange) ellipses. The B field caused by the primary current is entirely confined to the region enclosed by the primary winding (i.e. the core). Blue dots on the left hand cross section indicate that lines of B flux in the core come out of the left hand cross section. On the other cross section, blue plus signs indicate that the B flux enters there. The E field sourced from the primary currents is shown as green ellipses. The secondary winding is shown as a brown line coming directly down the axis of symmetry. In normal practice, the two ends of the secondary are connected together with a long wire that stays well away from the torus, but to maintain the absolute axial symmetry, the entire apparatus is envisioned as being inside a perfectly conductive sphere with the secondary wire "grounded" to the inside of the sphere at each end. The secondary is made of resistance wire, so there is no separate load. The E field along the secondary causes current in the secondary (yellow arrows) which causes a B field around the secondary (shown as blue ellipses). This B field fills space, including inside the transformer core, so in the end, there is continuous non-zero B field from the primary to the secondary, if the secondary is not open circuited. The cross product of the E field (sourced from primary currents) and the B field (sourced from the secondary currents) forms the Poynting vector which points from the primary toward the secondary.

[tinman]

Tinman, those wirewound "cement" power resistors will be introducing phase shifts and also false amplitudes due to their inductance. They really aren't suitable for use as current-sense resistors in measurements where phase and precise amplitude is important. The long ground-clip leads on the probes will also affect phase and amplitude. For more accuracy, it is recommended that you use real, non-inductive resistors and connect them as "kelvin probes" as closely as possible to the body of the resistor. I think Poynt99 has some videos on this subject, as do I.
These effects may not be so great at your low frequencies but it would be nice to see some comparative testing, to see how much shift is caused by the resistor inductances alone.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a1plHZwmWg

I have used my SG to drive the transformer,and even at 10 MHz i get no distortion across the resistors or transformer. I can produce a very clean sine wave up to this frequency on both the primary and secondary coils. Of course we are at much lower power levels than that scope shot you see in the pic of my setup.

[poynt99]

If so,then a current must be flowing through the primary in order for an E field to be produced.

Ultimately, yes. The B field is produced by the primary current, and the B field (through the core) induces the E field. I've been trying to solidify this for a couple pages.

If this is the case,then the EMF across a secondary(as in my setup) should never lead the primary current-->correct?.

Why not? Doesn't the primary voltage lead the primary current?

[poynt99]

'If' it is the E field that induces other conductors from the primary, and the E field is circling around the core, then what would be the difference between the 2 depictions below??  Would the inner conductor be induced(as we know it is) and the outer not be induced?

Mags

That is correct Mags. Once a wire goes through the center of the toroid, it has to loop all the way around eventually. So this constitutes a single turn secondary.

If you simply place a wire or coil against the outside perimeter of the toroid, there is no secondary that is formed. The wire or coil has to be exposed to the full loop of the E field. And it doesn't have to be a perfect circle, as you saw in that video Tinman posted a link to. As long as the wire completes at least one loop around the core.

[poynt99]

The thing is, Im not seeing any real good foundation that it is the E field that poses the induction between the pri and sec. Too many things dont make much sense. If the E field circles around the core, then an outside coil that has its winding against the core should be induced just as if the coils windings were in the core, with both cases the rest of the large outer coil being far away from the core. The inner coil producing currents in one direction and the outer producing currents in the other direction.

Not so. See my post above.

Where when we consider the idea magnetic fields of the primary cross over the hole of the core to complete the magnetic loop in the core is much more of a possibility.

Does it make sense that the flux generated by the primary would follow the high permeability core only part way, then cut across the toroid hole to complete the magnetic loop, when the path all the way around the core is about 1000 times "easier" for it to travel than through air?

Considering the horse shoe core vs a rod core, is it not easy to understand why the fields of the coil wound around the U of the horse shoe core would tend to have the fields loop back to the other pole mostly through the space between the 2 legs of the U core?.  So it should not be hard to understand how the fields of the primary can traverse across the hole of the toroid and 'cut' the secondary windings, thus producing currents in the secondary.

It is quite easy to understand why in a horsehoe magnet the magnetic loop is competed across the open ends. You are absolutely right, magnetic fields always loop. The only choice the horseshoe magnet has is to go across the open ends.

The field and flux through an already completed high permeability loop is also easy to envision and understand. The flux will always take the path of least resistance, and in the case of the high permeability toroid core, that path is all the way around the core, as opposed to short-cutting across the core through the air.