Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy

[MileHigh]

So the aiding and bucking numbers are the opposite of what is expected so why is that?

Also, aiding and bucking normally applies to two coils that are supposed to share the same magnetic core.  In this non-standard configuration that is not necessarily the case.  It's more complex than that and therefore the measurements are not straightforward.

[tinman]

So the aiding and bucking numbers are the opposite of what is expected so why is that?

Also, aiding and bucking normally applies to two coils that are supposed to share the same magnetic core.  In this non-standard configuration that is not necessarily the case.  It's more complex than that and therefore the measurements are not straightforward.

Yes-things seem to be ass about. So one of two things
1- we work out why it's opposite to that of the expected
2-I have messed up the winding direction of the inner secondary.
If 2 is the case, (which I doubt, as I always wind my coils the same way to avoid just this), then that means that the outer and inner secondaries are 180* out of phase with each other <-- this I doubt.

[MileHigh]

I am assuming that you didn't make a mistake with your turns.  Take a look at the attached diagram for what I see for the aiding configuration.

The primary produces flux into the page for both the red outer core and the blue inner core.  The green "X's" are much less visible for the blue inner core.  That's because there is the big air reluctance gap between the red outer core and the blue inner core.  Because of the big reluctance gap I am assuming that the vast majority of the flux due to the primary flows in the red outer core and only a vestige of flux flows in the blue inner core.

The inner secondary produces flux into the page in the blue inner core and flux out of the page in the red outer core.  For right now I have no reason to assume that they are not approximately the same strength.

You will note that the blue inner core has additive flux for the primary and the inner secondary.

You will note that the red outer core has flux cancellation between the primary and the inner secondary.  This will reduce the measured inductance.  That can possibly explain your measurement.

What about any possible Lenz's Law effects where the blue inner core reacts to the activity taking place in the red outer core in a contrarian way?  If there is any reaction, then you may see a "surprise" EMF induced across the inner core during the aiding test.  I am not sure here, but if there are any effects they may be superimposed on top of what voltage you would expect to see if you drive the aiding configuration with a signal generator.  That suggests scoping both coils at the same time while they are driven by the signal generator.  If you put your isolated scope ground at the junction of the two coils, and you invert one of the channels, then you will be able to see how each coil responds in the aiding configuration.  Will there be a "surprise" EMF observed or am I wrong?  Also, I just realized that if we assume that there is a lot of flux cancellation in the red outer core, then that means that there may be minimal Lenz effects in the blue inner core.

If the above paragraph is true, then what do you end up with?  You end up with a "dead" red outer core where there is a lot of flux cancellation.  You get a blue inner core where the majority of the additive flux is due to the flux generated by the current flowing through inner secondary.  Again, we are assuming that the primary only supplies a vestige of flux to the blue inner core.  So a "dead" red outer core and a "live" blue inner core.  Could this be a hint for why you see a higher voltage output from the inner secondary when you did your first tests?

Somebody can do a similar analysis for the bucking configuration.

[partzman]

Below are the requested result's.
the 19.8mH is across the open primary-i forgot to draw the line from the result to the coil.

Tinman,

Thanks for running these tests!  I have no reason to doubt your connections and if they are correct, the measurements do indicate some type of anomaly.  As one might expect, the math calcs produce negative results for the first two tests.

However, the third test showing a primary inductance of 19.8mh with the secondary shorted, does allow us to calculate the coefficient of coupling K = .579 between the two windings.

For the record, if by some chance you possibly made a mistake in the polarities, then the results would be as follows:

     M (mutual inductance) = .0418
     K (coefficient of coupling) = .793
     Lpleak (primary leakage inductance) = 6.16mh
     Lpss (primary inductance w/secondary shorted) = 11.05mh

Even if correct, these results IMO do not explain the experimental results you are seeing.  The only curious thing would be the difference between the measured and calculated K factors.

partzman

[ayeaye]

So, do you say that these bucking coils one on another induce opposite magnetic fields simultaneously in the core? If so then, what comes to my simple mind, is it possible that these opposite magnetic fields somehow prevent each other from decreasing, and this increases induction. If so, then it is very interesting.