Open Systems

[allcanadian]

This is from a previous debate on another thread
Now your thinking, the DWFTTW process appeared to the weak minded as a violation of physics because you cannot get more than what is already there. However their error was in the Energy accounting of an open system and a failure to understand what was there and available to use. You are correct and the rules which apply to closed systems do not always apply to open systems because obviously they are not the same thing.
If I put 1w of electric energy into a resistance heater I will always get 1w of heat out but if I put 1w of electrical energy into a heat pump I may get 5w of heat out. A resistance heater is a closed system and a heat pump is an open system...it's that simple. The critics are simply arguing that all systems must remain closed, they are arguing that the simple resistance heater is the only way of doing things which as we know is pure delusion. Why if they had their way we would have to install our wind turbines, heat pumps and solar panels inside dark closed boxes just to satisfy their twisted notion of reality.
AC

[MarkE]

Your post is littered with false assertions answered in the other thread.

[tinman]

Very true AC.
When a combination of a closed system and an open system are combined,we have a system that can deliver a net gain in energy output over that of which the closed system was supplied.The open system is ofcourse nature itself in the above case that AC mentioned,and the system i am about to present here over the next week or two. The time factor is due to the fact that i work long hours,and dont have a computor avaliable during working hours-the joys of being on the road for a living. The aditive to this time is that we will also !no doubt! have to deal with those in the know in regards to the concervation of energy

Quote: In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant—it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can be neither created nor be destroyed, but it can change form, for instance chemical energy can be converted to kinetic energy in the explosion of a stick of dynamite.

A consequence of the law of conservation of energy is that a perpetual motion machine of the first kind cannot exist. That is to say, no system without an external energy supply can deliver an unlimited amount of energy to its surroundings.

All that is needed is an open system to supply the extra energy ontop of that which was supplied and accounted for in the closed system.

Our open system will consist of the gravitational force,and the buoyant force.

Gravitational force
Quote: gravitational force - (physics) the force of attraction between all masses in the universe; especially the attraction of the earth's mass for bodies near its surface; "the more remote the body the less the gravity"; "the gravitation between two bodies is proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them";

The gravitational force will be supplying our system with a downward force,and that force is the mass of our system.

The buoyant force.
Quote: When an object is placed in a fluid, the fluid exerts an upward force we call the buoyant force. The buoyant force comes from the pressure exerted on the object by the fluid. Because the pressure increases as the depth increases, the pressure on the bottom of an object is always larger than the force on the top - hence the net upward force.

The buoyant force is what will supply the upward force in our system,and that force is dependant on the buoyant surface area,and the density of the mass within that buoyant surface area.

Below is a diagram of our closed system that conforms to the law of the conservation of energy-as stated in the diagram.
Our confirmation has been agreed upon-Quote: If the energy accounting balances, which everytime it has ever been done correctly it always has, then there is neither surplus nor deficit.
Quote:Energy is conserved in your electrolysis example.

[MarkE]

Both quoted statements are correct.  Now feel free to try and generate a surplus or a deficit.

[Pirate88179]

"Energy can not be created or destroyed." 

Do we always know where the energy goes in all possible cases?  What I mean is...I believe that the above law is still intact.  My question is, can we always know where energy is dissipated (as heat) or converted in any device?  Is there any "gray" area here?

I have no examples at this time, but if I think about it, I may be able to come up with some possible scenarios.

I am not taking sides here, just wanting to learn.

Bill