Open Systems

[MarkE]

I get the impression that Tinman is not recognising that there are two separate and distinct energy components related to the discussion:

1.  The chemical energy associated with the H2 and O2 gas resulting from the splitting of the water.  Nobody is disputing this.

2.  The energy dynamics related to the compression and expansion of the gas itself.   It's like the gas is a kind of compressed spring that can store and release energy.  In this case it doesn't matter what the chemical composition of the gas is.  The discussion about the laws of thermodynamics is all about this aspect.

Several people have brought out this distinction.  I think that Tinman is fine with it.  Tinman also gets that for a set energy condition P*V is a product:  Alter V and P follows inversely.  But where he gets stuck is that he thinks that P*V product is cast in stone, whether we add or subtract energy from the gas volume.  He thinks that the piston can do work without that work coming out of the gas that does the work.  It is a very fundamental error.

[LibreEnergia]

Mark E and libre will continue to ignore the most important aspect of the system @tinman.the phase change liquid>gas.the gain is here and here alone

If you are going to argue the toss on basic thermodynamics at least study and understand it as it is formulated first.

There are no gains to be had during a phase change. Liberation of energy during a phase change is counterbalanced by the energy requirement for the reverse process to occur. Unless you happen to have continuous supply of a substance undergoing a change (in other words a 'fuel') then the net effect over the cycle is neutral.

[profitis]

Quote milehigh:' The high velocity ping pong ball
that has escaped the liquid is balanced out by the fact that the
liquid has lost some thermal energy.'

Unquote

Excellent my love.who replaces that lost energy.tinman or the environment

[profitis]

Quote  libre: '  Liberation of
energy during a phase change is counterbalanced by the energy
requirement for the reverse process to occur'

Unquote

If the reversability is more efficient than the environments donated heat flow  then we have no problem. Tinman is not really interested in reversability right now.he just wants the accounting balance chekbooks.he wants to know his own total minimum tax in vs total out.you will not be permitted to leave out environmental contribution of work in the phase change liquid>gas and hence compression effort

[profitis]

@pomodoro: E= RT/nf ln P. When the P rise heats up the tinman device larger than the T drop from phase change..that's when tinmans tax goes bigger than environment's church donations.