Open Systems

[MarkE]

You loose that energy to where Mark?. A reminder that the heading of this thread is !!open systems!!. The energy is not lost,and regardless wether or not there is a resistance against the ram,the energy state of the gas within that ram will not change,in fact,it gains energy in the way of heat when the ram is made to do work.

Energy from the internal system is transferred to the external system.  The internal system no longer has the transferred energy.  In your arrangement: the average gas temperature goes down.  The sequential flow of energy is:  vessel gas volume => ram gas volume => external load.  In each of the two transfers the entropy of the system increases.  IE you end up with more mass at a lower average temperature at the end of each of the two steps than at the beginning of each.

There is no internal loss when the gas is performing external work,there is a gain in heat energy within the cylinder(the gas) when that ram is made to do work.

Round and round we go with no progress.  Do your experiments or if you have already done them, publish them and we can talk about what you see.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction-->the forces are always equal in opposite directions.

Newton's Third Law translates to:  "Any acceleration of a mass in one direction (action) imposes an equal and opposing acceleration of mass (reaction) in the opposite direction."  Because Newton's Second Law equates force to mass multiplied by acceleration, Newton's Third Law also translates to:  "Any force or mass acceleration has an equal and opposite force or mass acceleration."   When one or the other of the masses is very large compared to the other, the smaller mass will accelerate at a far greater rate than the larger mass.

You cannot have two apposing forces that are unequal,otherwise perpetual motion would be possable.

No, that is not what Newton's Third Law means.  N3 does not address energy.  N3 addresses force.  If we had an infinite supply of energy and propellant, N3 means that we could travel the stars forever.  That is in no way perpetual motion.

When you have what you call two unequal forces,you still only have a net force in one direction. This net force that is used to accelerate a mass is in the opposite direction to and equal to the accelerated mass-thus there is no unequal forces.

If you don't have a static force to oppose another, acceleration results, and by Newton's Second Law, action and reaction are then matched.

I have never said that i dont believe the vessel will cool when the gas is released,in fact,i have said the opposite-->so not sure where you came up with that statement. What i am saying is that the gas temperature in the ram will increase when the ram is made to do work-external work.

The temperature in the ram must increase before the ram can do work.  In the course of doing work, the temperature in the ram decreases from that elevated level.  Again:  energy flows from the vessel gas cooling the vessel gas, and heating the ram gas, and then from the ram gas into the external load cooling the ram gas.  Energy for any of the gas volumes at any point is:  n*R*T.  n does not change, and R is a constant.  As energy is transferred from one gas volume to someplace else the temperature of that gas volume with its fixed number of molecules n decreases.

So while the energy within the vessel reduces,the energy within the ram increases by the same amount-no energy is lost within the closed system.

If the ram could not do work on the external system, and there were no heat transfer to the outside system then that would be true.  But such is not the case, because in order for any gas to pass from the pressure vessel to the ram, it must pass through the valve orifice and in doing so will lose energy to the orifice body.  If the container were perfectly insulated from the outside world then eventually the orifice would reheat the gas.

The energy stored at this time(after the ram has performed work on the external system) within both the vessel and ram is the very same amount as we started with within the vessel.

You keep saying this.  We keep going round and round without progress.  Let's see what your experiments seem to show.

[MarkE]

Mmmm thanks for taking the time to respond. btw I frigging hate the tv show.

Tastes vary.  The show is very popular.  I like it.  I think that the Bernadette and Amy characters are cleverly written.  I think the mothers they cooked up for Sheldon and Leonard are priceless.

[LibreEnergia]

...the energy within the ram increases by the same amount-no energy is lost within the closed system. The energy stored at this time(after the ram has performed work on the external system) within both the vessel and ram is the very same amount as we started with within the vessel...

etc. etc.

Absolutely amazing! Using this incredible theoretical breakthrough I have been able to design a brand new ICE engine. It only requires a little bit of petrol to start the cycle and then it runs forever!.. The oil industry is doomed..!



Sorry for sounding patronizing but you have absolutely zero clue about thermodynamics. When a gas expands and does external  work heat is lost from the gas. Until you can understand why that is you have no hope of understanding why you device can never work.

[MarkE]

Absolutely amazing! Using this incredible theoretical breakthrough I have been able to design a brand new ICE engine. It only requires a little bit of petrol to start the cycle and then it runs forever!.. The oil industry is doomed..!



Sorry for sounding patronizing but you have absolutely zero clue about thermodynamics. When a gas expands and does external  work heat is lost from the gas. Until you can understand why that is you have no hope of understanding why you device can never work.

This has been a long and frustrating journey for all.  I think that tinman is honest in his intentions.  If it is at all possible, I would like to carry this through to where he can learn the truth from his experiments.  With that in mind, I ask for additional patience with tinman.

[Pirate88179]

Tastes vary.  The show is very popular.  I like it.  I think that the Bernadette and Amy characters are cleverly written.  I think the mothers they cooked up for Sheldon and Leonard are priceless.

The only episode of that show I really liked was where Woz made a guest appearance.

Bill