About the Torbay concept (and I do mean concept)

[lwh]

Hey all. 

I've just recently finished building my Torbay replication.  It does everything it's supposed to do, except self-run. 

Sorry I don't have pictures, but I don't have ready access to a camera.

I've used improvised materials in the construction and so had to let that influence the design quite a bit.  This meant I ended up having the stators pivot outwards more than up and down.  Which in turn meant I had the top cap on the rotor pushing the stators in from the sides, much like others here have drawn and mentioned.  In my opinion, this variation is workable. 

What wasn't workable, for me, were the magnets I was using.  I had some 25mm Neo cubes (N50's) left over from another project, so thought I'd try using those to see what would happen.  One in each of the eight stators, and one in the rotor. 

Turns out the disk-shaped rotor magnet Torbay used in his patented design is essential for the thing to work.  Anything less than that long horizontal surface area has the stators repelling the rotor as they come down (or in) to push the rotor.

I hope I'm describing this clearly.  The stator magnets must come down to push the rotor well behind the leading edge of the rotor magnet.  This can't be done if the rotor magnet is too short horizontally, as the stators will repel the rotor backwards before they can repel it forwards.

It's pretty obvious really, and something I saw in the planning stages, but which I hoped I could overcome during construction.  But no. 

I can turn the device by hand easily enough, but the space between when the stator is repelling in the wrong direction and when it's repelling in the right direction is too small, creating too sharp of an angle on the rotor ramp, for it to self run.

I hope this information is helpful in some way.  I'd like to see someone disprove what I've found, and get a Torbay device working with readily available materials, but I myself won't be doing it, for different reasons.

One reason being, somewhere along the way, while building this thing, it occurred to me that the repulsion force that pushes the rotor forward is the same force that pushes the stators in (or down).  That is, the stators push the rotor forward, which in turn (in a roundabout way) pushes the stators in, which push the rotor forward, which pushes the stators in, which push the rotor forward, which...now hang on a minute. 

I just don't get it.  How can that possibly work?

How do the stators push the rotor when the stators must themselves be pushed by the rotor in order to push the rotor...aaarrrrgghhhh!!!!!

Okay.  Hang on.  So you push it yourself to get it started.  Then it just continues on by itself.  But what about all the friction inherent in the design, which can never be fully surmounted?  Are those forces of resistance of no consequence at all?

I don't know.  I just don't know.  It's a conundrum.  The stators, while pushing the rotor, are essentially pushing themselves, with some moving parts inbetween. 

Doesn't sound good.  Impossible even, I'm afraid to say.

How can the stators push the rotor harder than the rotor is pushing the stators (isn't that what's required for the thing to work)? 

Even if there are two or three stator magnets repelling the rotor magnet at once, they are still only pushing the rotor because the rotor, via the top cap, is pushing the stators.

Please pardon my ignorance, but it just doesn't add up. 

I can't see how it can be overunity.  I can't see how, even with precision engineering of perfect components, it can overcome the frictions and resistances of its moving parts and be self running.

Again, I ask you all to forgive my ignorance, if that's what's preventing me from seeing how this thing can work.  But at the same time, I have to admit, without regret, that it may have been wishful thinking on my part that enabled me to believe in the torbay device in the first place.


       













             

[hartiberlin]

Please loan yourself a camera from a friend
and post some pics of your design.
Then we can have a closer look,
where your design error might be.
Did you use any springs at all in
your design to pull the magnets back ?

Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.

[lwh]

Heya Harti.

Sorry if my post isn't helpful without pictures.   

As for the springs, no, I didn't use any to pull the stators back.  With the stators pivot point below and behind the actual magnets, the stators move back very easily with just the barest help from the raising arm.

In terms of design errors, I'm pretty sure it all comes down to the magnets I used.  (That and the fundamental impossibility of the thing?)

But yeah, there might be something else I missed.  Would be good to get some feedback on it. 

I should be able to borrow a camera in a week or two, maybe sooner but only by chance.

[dingbat]

I don't know.  I just don't know.  It's a conundrum.  The stators, while pushing the rotor, are essentially pushing themselves, with some moving parts inbetween.

Doesn't sound good.  Impossible even, I'm afraid to say.

How can the stators push the rotor harder than the rotor is pushing the stators (isn't that what's required for the thing to work)?

Even if there are two or three stator magnets repelling the rotor magnet at once, they are still only pushing the rotor because the rotor, via the top cap, is pushing the stators.

Please pardon my ignorance, but it just doesn't add up. 

i would say you are brilliant, not ignorant.  i agree with your analysis that it can't work, and you said it in a way that everyone should be able to understand.

[Gregory]

I've just recently finished building my Torbay replication.  It does everything it's supposed to do, except self-run. 

Turns out the disk-shaped rotor magnet Torbay used in his patented design is essential for the thing to work.  Anything less than that long horizontal surface area has the stators repelling the rotor as they come down (or in) to push the rotor.

I hope I'm describing this clearly.  The stator magnets must come down to push the rotor well behind the leading edge of the rotor magnet.  This can't be done if the rotor magnet is too short horizontally, as the stators will repel the rotor backwards before they can repel it forwards.

It's pretty obvious really, and something I saw in the planning stages, but which I hoped I could overcome during construction.  But no. 

One reason being, somewhere along the way, while building this thing, it occurred to me that the repulsion force that pushes the rotor forward is the same force that pushes the stators in (or down).  That is, the stators push the rotor forward, which in turn (in a roundabout way) pushes the stators in, which push the rotor forward, which pushes the stators in, which push the rotor forward, which...now hang on a minute. 

I just don't get it.  How can that possibly work?

How do the stators push the rotor when the stators must themselves be pushed by the rotor in order to push the rotor...aaarrrrgghhhh!!!!!

Okay.  Hang on.  So you push it yourself to get it started.  Then it just continues on by itself.  But what about all the friction inherent in the design, which can never be fully surmounted?  Are those forces of resistance of no consequence at all?

I don't know.  I just don't know.  It's a conundrum.  The stators, while pushing the rotor, are essentially pushing themselves, with some moving parts inbetween. 

Doesn't sound good.  Impossible even, I'm afraid to say.

How can the stators push the rotor harder than the rotor is pushing the stators (isn't that what's required for the thing to work)? 

Even if there are two or three stator magnets repelling the rotor magnet at once, they are still only pushing the rotor because the rotor, via the top cap, is pushing the stators.

Please pardon my ignorance, but it just doesn't add up. 

I can't see how it can be overunity.  I can't see how, even with precision engineering of perfect components, it can overcome the frictions and resistances of its moving parts and be self running.

Hey lwh, I hear you.
Good observations, I think.

I have studied this motor for myself for some time, and I didn't try to build it, because mostly the same reasons and problems you mentioned. I think this motor won't work in the original way, even if does somehow, it must be weak & delicate, and hard to tune it.

But I believe it can be modified to become workable, and the concept itself is a really good idea. I also like Mrd's and others creative attempts.

I think the Balance is the key for success.
If you can make an overall balace for every stator magnet in relation to the rotor magnet, you can easily move the stators with the force of the rotor. I don't know how it is possible exactly, but I'm affraid it can be more complex. I have a few strange ideas, but still working on it. Perhaps, I will post them, when I find the right solution.

The mechanics and the movement of the stators must be in perfect balance in relation to each other and to the rotor magnets. And in this case only one unbalanced part remains: The rotor with torque.

Regards,
Greg