Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)

[digitalindustry]

Tinman and Luc -

have you viewed this video ?

he displays in this video multiple devices using 'BEMF' and conducts measurements of input and output.

there could be something here of value, he did however design a custom rotor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK3JOlY0V8Y

also is displayed a solid state device which is of course based on similar principals.

runs 53 minutes, but is pretty much display the whole time.

demonstrates COP>3 and above I believe.
regards.

[gotoluc]

Yes digitalindustry, TinMan and I know of Jim Murray.

I don't usually follow or replicate the work of others and mostly if they keep things secret.

There is still more to come from this topic and my motor design. There will be a new build that I'll be able to do high rpm tests coming out soon. This will allow to verify if the input power changes under different loads. If that build is successful then there will be a large 2hp version built next.

So, at this time I'm not looking for more ideas but more time to do the work.

Regards

Luc

[gotoluc]

Ok I'm doing something wrong here but I'm not sure what. I must have butchered woopys circuit some how http://youtu.be/GCE84y7gIrs

Jim mate, it looks to me your motor coil is a fine wire (HV) MOT secondary. Is this correct?

Luc

[wattsup]

@woopy

Great job. Do you need any other ideas?

@gotoluc

I read the whole thread so good on your topic and holding it and also good for all.

About the flux wheel with the two MOT primaries, I guess "bucking" is because the two pri's are in series. But to me that's not bucking. Bucking is when the two primaries are on the same core. Right now those two MOTs (usually 120 or 220 v driven) primary coils are driven with 10 volts. So in series that second primary coil should be dead. Just scope both. I would put them in parallel and add a third MOT primary off the wheel in series to the two in parallel. The third MOT should be on the side of the coils that is always connected, that is the non-pulsed side of the now two parallel primaries. Also, the pulsed side of the two primaries should be at the core.

Yes you can leave them in series and add the third MOT as above and you will see better performance but in this type of situation where you want both primaries to impart their maximum effect to the wheel plates, bucking is not the answer in my perspective.

Put it this way. If you just run it without connecting the second MOT, what happens? Chances are a 25% drop max. (Due to classic half coil syndrome - yep it's everywhere man).

But ultimately, if this design is to remain a 10 volt driven toy, you may consider unwinding the primaries until you start seeing a drop in effect. I guess 2/3rds of the windings should come out and then this will show the actual optimum with your idea of maximum core surface area.

Scope shots are often misleading. The first vertical voltage rise (1) indicates the average rise across the coil but this average means some parts are higher then others and overrrrrrallllllll this is what it looks like. hehehe The voltage rise is your pulse creating a copper atom streamer (influence of one copper nuclei to the next and to the next etc.) inside the coil wire that will penetrate to a certain depth into the wire length. That streamer starts agitating because itself it is as unstable as a spark gap, always wobbling around along the length of wire and making more and more atoms agitated. This shows up in your current waveform rise (4) and then steady (5). The drop in voltage (3) on the scope is because the 10 volts is not enough to keep all the copper atoms of that thick primary wire busy so it gets, well call it natures rms'ing of the line since all the other copper atoms around the stream will either do one of three things, turn to the new influence, not turn because it is already in the angle of influence, or do nothing since it is be too far to be influenced.

Small analogy of amperage variations. If you look at a spark gap that is 2 inches long with a very thin spark stream, then double the amperage, the stream will be thicker, if you double the voltage, the stream will go 4 inches long. In a wire it's the same thing man. (I could get into that later but this is relative to hydro plants outputing 750000 volts to stream along hundreds and hundreds of miles of wire.).

I don't know how your circuit is set up but if the positive is being pulsed, when the pulse opens, right away the next thing you have is the negative pushing back into the coil to reclaim it again and that is your flyback moment on the scope shot, You need to zoom in on that moment. Is it up first then down? hahaha If the negative is being pulsed then the above happens in reverse.

After that big spiking (6) it trails off just below the zero (7) and goes up to zero before the next pulse (. That trailing off needs to be lower then where it is right now, since that is a sign of how deep the pulse entered the coil wire length. Right now its saying to me, "not too deep".

One other never considered key also is the flat line ( just before the pulse in your scope shot. That flat line time is just perfect to introduce a high frequency (well if high is 5khz to 50khz) signal into the primary as a tickle pulse designed to realign the copper atoms before the next pulse. The tickle should stop right when the pulse starts so this way the tickle will keep the polarity side that is already connected (permanent side) busy so when the pulse occurs and the tickle stops, both the positive and negative sides will claim a freshly reset zone and this should increase the primary effect since the more copper atoms that are away from their potentialized (maybe not a word "yet") alignment the more change is created and the more magnetic polarization is produced.

But this could be future stuff. Or a second reed for @woopy. Accumulate the flyback
and release it at this time only back into the primary.

Hope this is not off topic. Keep go'in.

wattsup

PS: If you added a wattmeter before your variac and deduct its zero consumption loss maybe that will enable a more precise reading. But please do not get overly obsessive about input output since a this stage it seems rather premature to spend so much attention on that. Trust your instincts on when to consider taking measurements. You will know.

[gotoluc]

About the flux wheel with the two MOT primaries, I guess "bucking" is because the two pri's are in series. But to me that's not bucking. Bucking is when the two primaries are on the same core. Right now those two MOTs (usually 120 or 220 v driven) primary coils are driven with 10 volts. So in series that second primary coil should be dead. Just scope both. I would put them in parallel and add a third MOT primary off the wheel in series to the two in parallel. The third MOT should be on the side of the coils that is always connected, that is the non-pulsed side of the now two parallel primaries. Also, the pulsed side of the two primaries should be at the core.

Yes you can leave them in series and add the third MOT as above and you will see better performance but in this type of situation where you want both primaries to impart their maximum effect to the wheel plates, bucking is not the answer in my perspective.

Hi wattsup,

just to let you know, the MOT primaries are and have always been connected in parallel. I have never tried connecting them in series and was not planing to. I want minimal coil resistance for maximum flyback power.

Thanks

Luc