Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)

[gotoluc]

Gyula,

Okay, I can see your test apparently refutes my claim, which made me realize that I have to further fine tune my statements and description.  For starters, the phenomenon that I described is something that I have observed myself several times in the past.  It was so long ago and I was just casually playing with magnets that I can't remember any specifics.

The reason I suggested long and thin bar-type magnets was to reduce the gradient in the magnetic field strength at the end of each magnet.  That way presumably you have more opportunity for the phenomenon I described to take place.

I believe what I missed in my description is that the magnets can't be such that the ferrite or other material is fully saturated.  There has to be some remaining headroom for supporting the flow of increased magnetic flux.  Without that property I don't think it will work.  So I am going to assume that your "bar" magnets made with the Alnico material are nearly or are fully saturated.  So that means from the perspective of the opposing magnet, there is no conduit for magnetic flux, and the relative permeability of the material is close to one.

So, if you can imagine the two approaching bar magnets, north approaching north, each magnet "sees" an approaching opposite pole (repulsion) and it "sees" an approaching conduit for magnetic flux (attraction).  When the magnets cross the "zero line" threshold, the stronger magnet nullifies the magnetic field of the weaker magnet, and the remaining net magnetic field and potential for increasing flux will cause attraction between the two magnets.  The net magnetic field gradient is working "for attraction" in this case as more net flux continues to flow between the two magnets as they get closer together.

This is all partially shown in Luc's clip:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAYsAN5QPnA

Nothing happens when he energizes the two core assemblies that are facing each other in repulsion mode.  If you assume the same modified transformers were used, you have the same number of turns and they are connected in series for the same number of ampere-turns.  Both cores are only partially magnetized so they both have extra headroom for magnetic flux to flow through them in the "opposite" direction.

The net result of all of this is near-perfect flux cancellation and essentially no net magnetic field, so the force between the two transformer cores is near zero.  There is a gradient, but with no net magnetic field when the two cores are so close together, that you can do nothing with it.  If the experiment was done so that you had 10% more current flowing in one of the modified transformers, then the gradient has something to work with, and then the two transformer cores would be attracted to each other, as per my suggested experiment.

Likewise, if in the clip Luc had moved the two transformer cores about one centimeter away from each other,  then you would have had less flux flowing into the "opposite" core because of the big air gap.  At the same time, the repulsive magnetic field gradient would have taken over and the two transformer cores would have pushed away from each other from the now-manifesting magnetic repulsion.

So, if you agree with this, Luc's clip is a partial demonstration of the phenomenon that I am referring to.

MileHigh

Hi MH,

your test and results can be achieved even with neodymium if you use of piece of steel between them. You must tune to correct thickness and you will get exactly what you described.  Did it many times and can works with any magnets.

I do agree it can also be done with a weak ceramic magnets that has space to store flux of the overtaking magnet.

Luc

[gyulasun]

....
But I digress,,

Hi webby1,

Yes I understand how the use of a soft steel between the repel magnets changes the situation versus the case when
there is air gap between the two repel magnets. I agree that with a soft iron in-between, several possibilities come
up, depending on the properties of the iron piece (thickness, length, permeability etc) and as you mention, repel or
attract modes can be attained, including a shoot away situation for the soft iron piece.
But my question was not involved with an iron piece placed between two repel poles but was involved with how MileHigh
meant the "cancellation" of magnetic repel fields between two facing electromagnets with the air gap in between.

Thanks
Gyula

[gyulasun]

...
I believe what I missed in my description is that the magnets can't be such that the ferrite or other material is fully saturated.  There has to be some remaining headroom for supporting the flow of increased magnetic flux.  Without that property I don't think it will work.  So I am going to assume that your "bar" magnets made with the Alnico material are nearly or are fully saturated.  So that means from the perspective of the opposing magnet, there is no conduit for magnetic flux, and the relative permeability of the material is close to one.
...

Hi MileHigh,

Yes, permanent magnets are fully or almost fully saturated materials.  It is a fact that any permanent magnet (which is not abused and indeed a magnet) has got a relative permeability of very near to 1.  We already agreed on this here:
http://overunity.com/13993/the-magneformer-lenzless-transformer/msg377008/#msg377008 
and here is data on relative permeability of Neodymium and Samarium-Cobalt magnets:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium_magnet#Physical_and_mechanical_properties 

You also wrote:

So, if you can imagine the two approaching bar magnets, north approaching north, each magnet "sees" an approaching opposite pole (repulsion) and it "sees" an approaching conduit for magnetic flux (attraction).  When the magnets cross the "zero line" threshold, the stronger magnet nullifies the magnetic field of the weaker magnet, and the remaining net magnetic field and potential for increasing flux will cause attraction between the two magnets.  The net magnetic field gradient is working "for attraction" in this case as more net flux continues to flow between the two magnets as they get closer together.

If you accept that permanent magnets have a magnetic permeability very close to one, then why would any of the magnets see an approaching conduit for flux in the other approaching magnet?

For, if you accept that magnetic lines of flux coming from two like poles would always repel each other, then this would mean that no or very little part of the flux lines from one magnet could reach the body of the other magnet so any attraction force would be amply defeated by the ruling repel forces.

If you accept these, then the question is why would the magnetic lines of flux (that repel each other) cancel each other? 
My answer is they cannot cancel each other in repel but they both get diverted (sideways) and compressed (I refer to your two bar magnets in repel example).  If your answer is the fields get cancelled, that is fine with me but at least I tried and I see it differently.

Regarding the measurements on individual and combined magnet fields I uploaded as the FluxStrengthOfMagPoles.jpg file from an old yahoo group, the flux numbers clearly show what happens to combined fields of magnets when they are in repel or in attract mode.
Sorry but I disagree with the conclusions you wrote here (for reasons I wrote above) :
http://overunity.com/16167/sharing-ideas-on-how-to-make-a-more-efficent-motor-using-flyback-moderated/msg466910/#msg466910 


Regarding Luc's video clip on the two E cored coils in attract and repel modes, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAYsAN5QPnA  I will return to it later tomorrow or a day after.

Gyula

[MileHigh]

If you accept that permanent magnets have a magnetic permeability very close to one, then why would any of the magnets see an approaching conduit for flux in the other approaching magnet?

For, if you accept that magnetic lines of flux coming from two like poles would always repel each other, then this would mean that no or very little part of the flux lines from one magnet could reach the body of the other magnet so any attraction force would be amply defeated by the ruling repel forces.

If you accept these, then the question is why would the magnetic lines of flux (that repel each other) cancel each other? 
My answer is they cannot cancel each other in repel but they both get diverted (sideways) and compressed (I refer to your two bar magnets in repel example).  If your answer is the fields get cancelled, that is fine with me but at least I tried and I see it differently.

I am making the assumption that some permanent magnets are manufactured so as to not be too strong.  So in these magnets not all of the magnetic domains are strongly aligned and there is indeed available headroom for more magnetic flux to flow.  I am not an expert but I think the phenomenon of a stronger magnet overcoming the repelling force of a weaker magnet is something that many people have observed.  Think about inducing magnetism into the tip of a screwdriver.  Then of course the magnetic material itself is something that can come in many different formulations.

I don't accept you notion of compression and diversion.  I will just repeat that the magnetic fields from the two north poles of the two magnets just pass right through each other.  The net magnetic field, the vector addition of these two separate field sources only appears to show "compression."  It's simply an illusion.  "Areas of high compression" are often areas where the magnetic field is actually quite weak, simply because the vector addition of the two fields because of the direction component is actually a subtraction.  If you sketched out two north fields facing each other as if the opposing field did not exist, and then you sketched out the net field from the vector addition, you would clearly see that it looks exactly what the "compression field" looks like.   So indeed, the magnetic north field from one magnet can pass directly into the north end of a facing magnet.  If the facing magnet has some permeability headroom to offer to the other field then there will be more flux flow from the facing magnet.

Yes, I agree that in most cases when you push two magnet north faces together you feel repulsion.  However, you know that magnetic material that has a soft plastic feel to it?  I am not talking about kitchen cabinet magnets, which I believe are ceramic.  The material I am talking about is related to those rubbery and pliable magnetic materials that might be used say for a magnetic clasp to say to keep a woman's purse closed or to keep an iPad case closed.  They are some kind of a rubber/magnetic composite material.  When you take that type of magnetic material, say in the shape of two rectangular blocks, and you bring opposite poles together, you feel a dramatic decrease in the repulsive force when the opposite pole faces are brought together.  Some food for thought.

MileHigh

[Over Goat]

would anyone here be willing to post a summary , even two sentences, on what  is going on with this bucking motor? For newbies who don't understand this clearly (like me) Please forgive my ignorance , seriously, I dont' want to take away anything from what you have all worked so hard to learn and achieve, by my coming here and not understanding this.
I have read through the thread and tried to take as much in as I can understand with my limited (0) knowledge of electricity and electronics. I gather that these microwave transformers are somehow capturing and storing previously wasted power in an innovative new way,  and the task at hand is now to find ways to use it to propel the rotor in an innovative new way.

If so it is a promising new development, hoping to understand a bit more via plain English
about what is going on, and the potential applications for this, potential ways to achieve this, etc.