Moon Walkers.

[tinman]

Brad:

Your first place to start is to learn how to express yourself properly when talking about mass and weight in different environments like the Earth, the moon, and in orbit.  Here is a simple fact:  I was expressing myself correctly the whole time and you weren't.  It's true Brad and you need to deal with this issue for yourself.  The first time I mentioned pounds there was a little bit of wiggle room for ambiguity but not really if you make a reasonable assumption that the reader will understand the context.  Subsequent to that everything I said with respect to mass and weight was correct.

I was expressing myself properly - this is a fact that you need to come to terms with.  So you need to roll up your shirtsleeves and do some more research on your own and then understand what I said for starters, and then undertake to learn to express yourself properly about the same thing.

MH
It is you that failed to express your self correctly -and that is a fact.
I have not disagreed with anything you said about mass and velocity-that is a fact.
We were talking about astronauts on the moon, and you presented weights that represent mass amounts in lb,s here on earth-not the moon-that is a fact.
When you post weights that are associated with events on the moon, how do you expect any one to know whether those weight are what the astronaut weighs on the moon, or what they weigh on earth (there mass). As we are discussing events on the moon, then it would be very reasonable to assume you were refering to what they weigh on the moon, and not what they weigh on earth. So how you ever came up with it being me that is not expressing myself correctly, I will never know, as it is clearly you that has posted data that could have multiple versions.

Now-what you have to do is verify your theory as a reality. I will accept any video or data you can find that shows enough energy being returned to the ground by some one that has a mass of 130kg, making a flag pole rattle enough to cause a flag to waver, as they skip on past.
OR- show evidence that PWs theory is correct, and that some how, the exausted water vapor can pass through the tough skin of the PLSS unit--right after you first show that the exaust vent is actually on the left side of the PLSS unit.

In the mean time, can you explain as to why there is no sign of injury as stated in the videos by the astronauts, to the astronauts hands?.

Brad.

[MileHigh]

We were talking about astronauts on the moon, and you presented weights that represent mass amounts in lb,s here on earth-not the moon-that is a fact.
When you post weights that are associated with events on the moon, how do you expect any one to know whether those weight are what the astronaut weighs on the moon, or what they weigh on earth (there mass). As we are discussing events on the moon, then it would be very reasonable to assume you were refering to what they weigh on the moon, and not what they weigh on earth. So how you ever came up with it being me that is not expressing myself correctly, I will never know, as it is clearly you that has posted data that could have multiple versions.

Well, the simple truth is that you are mixed up, and my instincts are telling that you have invented your own strange set of spontaneous rules because you are not aware of simple conventions.

I have almost exclusively referred to the astronaut as being 130 kilograms.  That means the astronaut has a mass of 130 kilograms.  It could be on Earth, it could be on the moon, or it could be in orbit, it doesn't matter where the astronaut is located at all.  Every single time that I state kilograms I am talking about the astronaut's mass and I am never talking about the astronaut's weight.  I am not really that concerned with the astronauts weight because his weight is self-evident when you state the astronaut's mass based on where he is located.  I have tried to get this point across to you many times.  I have told you repeatedly that when you use the term "kilograms" you are referring to mass and not weight.  I have told you repeatedly that people do not state "kilograms of weight" ever.  You are not ever supposed to state "kilograms of weight" when you are having a scientific discussion and you are doing it all the time.

We were talking about astronauts on the moon, and you presented weights that represent mass amounts in lb,s here on earth-not the moon-that is a fact.

You look over what I said above and you read it as many times as are necessary until you come to the conclusion that your statement quoted immediately above is wrong.  You have to understand and realize for yourself that I never talked about the weight of the astronaut because I always used kilograms and when you use the term "kilograms" you are only talking about mass, and you are not talking about weight.  You get it through your head that when you quote kilograms that it can be on Earth, on the moon, in orbit around the Earth, in orbit around the moon, or floating in space, it does not matter because kilograms are the same everywhere.  Likewise, only at the very beginning of the discussion did I discuss "mass in pounds" and I never referred to it after that.  I have already explained why I did that just one single time.

So how you ever came up with it being me that is not expressing myself correctly, I will never know, as it is clearly you that has posted data that could have multiple versions."

Only in your head have I "posted data that could have multiple versions."  You need absorb what I am saying here and understand it completely.  If you can do that and then go back and reread what I have posted in this thread you will realize that I have been consistent in what I have been saying the whole time.

[tinman]

Them rover tracks look added in. 

Mags



Edit.  Wrong image was posted.

Well i could spend a little more time on them,but what about my lander?--looks good for windows paint -dosnt it
Notice how the original rover tracks are a zigzag pattern lol.'

[MileHigh]

Now-what you have to do is verify your theory as a reality. I will accept any video or data you can find that shows enough energy being returned to the ground by some one that has a mass of 130kg, making a flag pole rattle enough to cause a flag to waver, as they skip on past.
OR- show evidence that PWs theory is correct, and that some how, the exausted water vapor can pass through the tough skin of the PLSS unit--right after you first show that the exaust vent is actually on the left side of the PLSS unit.

In the mean time, can you explain as to why there is no sign of injury as stated in the videos by the astronauts, to the astronauts hands?.

I asked you what happens when you drop a rock on the surface of the moon and you said the energy in the impact goes into the moon's crust.  I don't have any data that shows that the thumping astronaut puts enough impact energy into the surface of the moon to make the flag rattle.  The only thing I have is the video, which suggests that possibility.  Likewise, you don't have any data that shows that the impact of the astronaut didn't make the flag rattle.  So we are both lacking data, except for what inferences that we can make by looking at the video clip.  I am not prepared to research the way the moon's crust responds to impact energy.

Nor am I prepared to dig into all of the details of the ice sublimation system that cools the astronaut.  There are so many variables and unknowns that it is way beyond my time and expertise to comment on that with any clarity or degree of certainty or accuracy.  A real answer would require a full-blown computer simulation to answer the question.  So for that one I am just assuming that there is a reasonable possibility it is true also.  Even if you knew where the venting orifice on the space suit was, that doesn't give you the answer at all.  All that does is give you one small step towards defining the problem.

For the astronaut's hands, please read the YouTube comments on the clip.  There are some interesting postings from people that claim they know details about the timeline of the mission and from people that claim they have medical backgrounds.  There is what appears to be credible information in the YouTube comments that could explain the issue about the state of the astronaut's hands.  I was not aware of the issue at all, so I simply spent 15 minutes reading comments by others.

[tinman]

author=MileHigh link=topic=16359.msg472820#msg472820 date=1454322226


   

Well, the simple truth is that you are mixed up, and my instincts are telling that you have invented your own strange set of spontaneous rules because you are not aware of simple conventions.

I have almost exclusively referred to the astronaut as being 130 kilograms.  That means the astronaut has a mass of 130 kilograms.  It could be on Earth, it could be on the moon, or it could be in orbit, it doesn't matter where the astronaut is located at all.  Every single time that I state kilograms I am talking about the astronaut's mass and I am never talking about the astronaut's weight.  I am not really that concerned with the astronauts weight because his weight is self-evident when you state the astronaut's mass based on where he is located.  I have tried to get this point across to you many times.  I have told you repeatedly that when you use the term "kilograms" you are referring to mass and not weight.  I have told you repeatedly that people do not state "kilograms of weight" ever.  You are not ever supposed to state "kilograms of weight" when you are having a scientific discussion and you are doing it all the time.

We are going to have this argument for some time- arnt we MH. You simply will not accept the fact that you got it wrong,and continually try to reverse the mistake onto me. Weight is not a measure of mass MH-weight is the measure  of the gravitational pull between two objects--you need to understand or learn that MH-->weight is not a measure of mass-weight is a measure of the gravitational pull between two objects. The only place where weight is directly related to mass is here on earth MH--not the bloody moon. The only time weight can be used to determine mass amount,is on earth-or any other planet or moon that has a gravitational acceleration of 9.8m/sec Squared. You clearly quoted weight when referring to the astronauts and there suits on the moon--first in LB's,and then in KG's.
Weight is !!NOT!! mass MH--it is the gravitational pull between two objects<--do you understand this?. So when you stated that the astronaut and his suit had a combines !!weight!! of 290-pounds,and i corrected you,and gave you the correct !weight! of 47.85 pounds--you got your knickers in a twist. We are on the moon MH-not earth. Weight is not mass MH-weight is the gravitational pull between two objects. Please go and learn what weight is,before incorrectly saying it is mass. I will help you out some.

Quote Hyperphysics : The weight of an object is the force of gravity on the object and may be defined as the mass times the acceleration of gravity, w = mg. Since the weight is a force, its SI unit is the newton.

Quote Wiki : In science and engineering, the weight of an object is usually taken to be the force on the object due to gravity.[1][2] Weight is a vector whose magnitude (a scalar quantity), often denoted by an italic letter W, is the product of the mass m of the object and the magnitude of the local gravitational acceleration g;[3] thus: W = mg. The unit of measurement for weight is that of force, which in the International System of Units (SI)

So MH,how much dose your astronaut weigh again on the moon-in regards to your big ground thumper ?,and what is his mass?
So you see MH,now that you know that mass is not weight,can you see how you need to be correct when stating weights regarding theories based on lunar activities.

You look over what I said above and you read it as many times as are necessary until you come to the conclusion that your statement quoted immediately above is wrong.

It would be far better for you to understand the difference between mass and weight

You have to understand and realize for yourself that I never talked about the weight of the astronaut because I always used kilograms , and you are not talking about weight.

Because the 170 pound -astronaut and the 120-pound space suit form a 290-pound "ground thumper" that hits the ground for every bounce.  That makes the ground shake, a small portion of the energy from the bounce makes the flag pole rattle.

and when you use the term "kilograms" you are only talking about mass

Mass is not weight MH-->i hope this is sinking in. The weight of an object on the moon-or any other planet or moon that dose not have a gravitational acceleration value of 9.8m/sec squared,is not the mass of that object.

You get it through your head that when you quote kilograms that it can be on Earth, on the moon, in orbit around the Earth, in orbit around the moon, or floating in space, it does not matter because kilograms are the same everywhere.

Yes-but KG's (weight) is not mass. And the weight of an object only represents it's mass here on earth,where as the weight of an object on the moon dose not represent it's mass.

Likewise, only at the very beginning of the discussion did I discuss "mass in pounds" and I never referred to it after that.  I have already explained why I did that just one single time.

Ah yes-just after i corrected you

Only in your head have I "posted data that could have multiple versions."  You need absorb what I am saying here and understand it completely.  If you can do that and then go back and reread what I have posted in this thread you will realize that I have been consistent in what I have been saying the whole time.

Yes-consistently wrong in assuming that mass is weight-which it is not. We know that weight(which is what you posted)is not an objects mass on the moon. So for your weights to be correct!!as measured on the moon!,it should be as follows
Because the 28.05-pound astronaut and the 19.8-pound space suit form a 47.85-pound "ground thumper" that hits the ground for every bounce.  That makes the ground shake, a small portion of the energy from the bounce makes the flag pole rattle.
Now we see that your ground thumper that makes pole rattle,causing flags to wave,dosnt sound so good now .

So try and describe either the astronaut and his suit's weight,or his mass MH,as the two are not the same.


Cheers
Brad