Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)

[conradelektro]

The oldest "electricity generator" is the electrophorus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrophorus which was invented around 1760.

The electrophorus can be viewed as a variable capacitor which is pre-charged. And by separating the plates (moving one plate of the capacitor further away) one can increase the Voltage of the pre-charge (the principle of charge separation).

The pre-charge is set up by rubbing the "cake" of the electrophorus (the electrolyte) occasionally with fur or wool (the triboelectric effect).

The electrophorus is normaly viewed as a demonstration object (demonstrating the charge separation principle) and not as a continuous source of electricity. One creates a high Voltage charge in the movable plate of the electrophorus and that is the end of it.

Here you can see such a typical demonstration video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO95iGtRVv0 (which is not from me). There are many such demonstration videos available at YouTube if you care to search for "electrophorus".

I developed two circuits (a "basic circuit" and a "basic doubler", see the attached circuit diagrams) which allow to use the electrophorus as a continuous source of electricity. Well, not as continuous as a battery, but one can create a train of High Voltage pulses.

The "basic circuit" is demonstrated in my two videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLCp68VX7NE  and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzoUiZnR5QA

The two videos are not very well done and you have to eliminate the diode HVRT200 mentally. It does not do harm, but it is superfluous (just two HV capacitors are needed and at least one gas discharge lamp (FL, Neon Lamp, CFL). So stick to the "basic circuit" as attached.

The "basic circuit" delivers a HV pulse in one direction (when the top plate is lifted) and then a HV pulse in the other direction (when the top plat is set down again) and so on. If the gas discharge lamp has a rather low break-through-Voltage (e.g. 300 Volt), a series of positive pulses and then a series of negative pulse and so on, is created (because the charge builds up several times per stroke to 300 Volt).

My little research topic is to come up with additional circuitry (which would replace the gas discharge lamp) to for instance charge a super cap with the generated pulse train.

The "basic doubler" is demonstrated in my video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=notE4ugcgvk

and in the video it charges a capacitor with pulses in only one direction to about 5000 Volt (in this case negative pulses) and drives a simple electrostatic motor.

So, the "basic doubler" creates a train of pulses in only one direction. The direction (positive or negative) depends on the polarity of the charge imparted on the "cake" by rubbing it with fur or wool. The polarity of the charge depends on the cake-material, if its acrylic, the charge is positive when rubbed with fur or wool.

My little research topic is to come up with additional circuitry to alleviates the "reverse current problem" of the two diodes in the "basic doubler" so that the capacitor can be charged to very High Voltages (e.g. 20 KV). Higher Voltages make an electro static motor more efficient.

Remarks:

It is not a spectacular thing and there is no OU. The energy for "charge separation" is put in when lifting the top plate. And once the charge has built up one feels the attraction force (which has to be worked against when lifting the plate). So, one not only has to work against gravity (the weight of the top plate) but also against the electrostatic attraction of opposite charges (as a positively and a negatively charged object are attracted).

For me it is fascinating that such a simple machine as an electrophorus (pre-charged variable capacitor) can be used to generate a train of pulses. Imagine a simple crank mechanism as depicted in the attached drawing. Such a simple mechanism will allow to do scope measurements in order to quantify the "electricity" generated per second or minute (if the crank mechanism is turned uniformly e.g. by an electric motor).

Is it useful? At the moment, NO! But one can hope to develop a better electrostatic machine than the simple electrophorus which would create more electricity (e.g. a modified Wimshurst machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wimshurst_machine). And this newly developed "not any more the old Wimshurst Machine" would have no brushes and no mechanical contacts (just HV diodes, HV transistors and HV capacitors).

I observed that the top plate of the electrophorus only has to be lifted 2 mm in order to create a 1000 Volt pulse. One could therefore build a machine that utilizes micro movements like vibrations (cause by wind or by the movement of people over a side walk or by car traffic).

O.k., I stop speculating and I hope that may be some are interested in this hobby of mine.

Greetings, Conrad

[guest1289]

Hope you don't mind me posting my question that I can't figure out an answer to,  I posted it previously on :
http://overunity.com/14021/electrostatic-motor/msg475332/#msg475332

Since I can't find the answer to my question as to how electrostatic-charges dissipate, 
    that is,  whether a normal smooth surface looses it's electrostatic-charge into the air over time,  or whether it can only transmit that charge to another object,
I can't work out the answer to the question below .

   ( There are several different types of electrostatic-motors  )

   I Can't Figure Out The Following -

   Electrostatic-Motor In A Vacuum
       If you placed a suitable type of  electrostatic-motor( for this vaccum question ) into the highest vacuum that can be achieved :

    -  Would the motor run for a longer time,  than in a non-vacuum,   before dissipating all of it's charge  ?

    -  I assume that putting it into a vacuum,  could not turn it into a perpetual-motion device

    -  Each time a  moving-charged-component  of the motor( in the vacuum ) discharges some of it's charge to a stator in the motor,  would it visually look like one of those plasma-globes  ?

    -  Could some additional wiring( and maybe electronics ) turn it into a  self-running  perpetual-motion device,   ?

[TinselKoala]

Hope you don't mind me posting my question that I can't figure out an answer to,  I posted it previously on :
http://overunity.com/14021/electrostatic-motor/msg475332/#msg475332

Since I can't find the answer to my question as to how electrostatic-charges dissipate, 
    that is,  whether a normal smooth surface looses it's electrostatic-charge into the air over time,  or whether it can only transmit that charge to another object,
I can't work out the answer to the question below .

Charge can persist on a surface for a long time if conditions are right. A "perfect" insulator is hard to find though. Dry air is pretty good but not perfect. Charge can dissipate by corona (ion) spray from surface irregularities like sharp points, rough areas etc. Usually, moisture in the air will condense a little bit on surfaces, even smooth ones, and a little dust contamination along with the adsorbed water will make a conductive path for charge to leak away.

   ( There are several different types of electrostatic-motors  )

Yes, that's right.

   I Can't Figure Out The Following -

   Electrostatic-Motor In A Vacuum
       If you placed a suitable type of  electrostatic-motor( for this vaccum question ) into the highest vacuum that can be achieved :

    -  Would the motor run for a longer time,  than in a non-vacuum,   before dissipating all of it's charge  ?

Probably. You need a very hard vacuum though, because air gases become more conductive with lower pressure, to a certain point, then the vacuum becomes less conductive as you get into really hard vacuum. Look up Paschen's Law, Paschen curve.

    -  I assume that putting it into a vacuum,  could not turn it into a perpetual-motion device

You assume correctly.

    -  Each time a  moving-charged-component  of the motor( in the vacuum ) discharges some of it's charge to a stator in the motor,  would it visually look like one of those plasma-globes  ?

Not necessarily. Plasma globes are actually filled with gas at low pressure. It depends on where you are in the Paschen curve for the particular gases. If you have a really hard vacuum where the residual gas is not conductive, your ES motor may not even work at all, depending on what type it is.

    -  Could some additional wiring( and maybe electronics ) turn it into a  self-running  perpetual-motion device,   ?

Good luck with that. Conservation laws still apply, even in vacuum.

[TinselKoala]

@conrad: Thumbs up! Nicely done.

[conradelektro]

   ( There are several different types of electrostatic-motors  )

There is this book from Oleg Jefimenko about electrostatic motors http://rexresearch.com/jefimenko/jefimenkoesmotors.pdf  which explains the basic types.

There are two important principles:

1) Objects which have the same electric charge are pushed apart or if two objects have the opposite electric charge they are attracted.

2) The rocket principle: electrons or air ions are ejected

There are many types of electrostatic motors and they employ one or both principles stated above.

I know, this explanation will not be helpful. I suggest you read the book from Oleg Jefimenko as a start.


About electrostatic motors in vacuum:

If an electrostatic motor needs air ions (either to transport charge or for ejection) it will not work in vacuum.

If you look at the simple electrostatic motor in my video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=notE4ugcgvk you will see that two copper strips are very close to the rotor. If the copper strips touch the rotor, it will work in vacuum. If they are close to the rotor but not touching it will only work in air (or in an other gas atmosphere), because charge is transported through the air by air ions. You see, it is not that simple whether an electrostatic motor will work in vacuum or not.

In general it is costly (in terms of energy) to eject electrons from a material (the material has to be heated to a high temperature), therefore all electrostatic motors which depend on ejecting electrons are not very efficient (but they will work in vacuum).


OU and electrostatic motors:

There is nothing in electrostatic motors that would suggest OU and definitely not in vacuum.


The future of electrostatic motors:

I see a great future of electrostatic motors in Nano-Technology (very small motors). But it is not possible to do that at home.

I only show an electrostatic motor in the context of my "electrostatic generator experiments" to demonstrate the High Voltage and that even the most simple device (like the electrophorus) really generates a considerable amount of electricity. My aim is to step down the High Voltage to useful levels (like 5 Volt or 12 Volt) with simple circuits.

I have this idea (may be it is a useless idea) that electrostatic generators have been neglected in the last 100 years and that they could be a useful power source if only a little power is needed e.g. for charging a mobile phone or any small device that is carried to monitor body functions like blood pressure or blood sugar level.

A pet theory of mine is that vibration is best utilized for electricity generation by help of an electrostatic generator (not by help of Piezo crystals  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectricity  as is often tried today).

Greetings, Conrad