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Overunity Machines Forum



MH's ideal coil and voltage question

Started by tinman, May 08, 2016, 04:42:41 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 11 Guests are viewing this topic.

Can a voltage exist across an ideal inductor that has a steady DC current flowing through it

yes it can
5 (25%)
no it cannot
11 (55%)
I have no idea
4 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 20

verpies

Quote from: tinman on May 13, 2016, 08:33:52 PM
An "ideal inductor" has inductance, but no resistance or capacitance, and does not dissipate or radiate energy.
But it stores energy in the form of magnetic flux.  Because of this an inductor can have reactance even of it does not have resistance

Quote from: tinman on May 13, 2016, 08:33:52 PM
An ideal voltage source is a voltage source that supplies constant voltage to a circuit despite the current which the circuit draws.
This means that despite the resistance which a load may be in a circuit, the source will still provide constant and steady voltage.
An ideal voltage source has the following characterstic that allows it to act as a 100% efficient source of voltage: it has zero internal resistance.
That's quite true

It is impossible to connect such voltage source across a shorted ideal inductor, because in such case  this voltage source would see a load, which does not have any resistance nor reactance

However it is possible to connect such voltage source in series with an ideal inductor.  In this case the inductor becomes shorted by the zero internal resistance of the ideal voltage source and this voltage source sees a load, that does not have any resistance but has reactance.

Quote from: tinman on May 13, 2016, 08:33:52 PM
Why a voltage cannot exist across a shorted ideal inductor that has current flowing through it>
Because there is no place to place the voltmeter probes on a shorted ideal inductor ...in practice as well as in theory.

Quote from: tinman on May 13, 2016, 08:33:52 PM
...and the current flowing through that ideal inductor is the same at any two points of that inductor.
And there is no voltage drop anywhere along the ideal shorted inductor even if there is current flowing through it.

verpies

Quote from: webby1 on May 13, 2016, 08:59:15 PM
There could be voltage that you can not measure or interact with because all the way around the loop the voltage would be uniform, so current flow but no way to measure the voltage.
And in such case voltage becomes just a postulate ...since you think it's there but cannot measure it.

verpies

Quote from: tinman on May 13, 2016, 09:13:43 PM
Having no internal resistance,the current flow is in no way impeded ,an so that is what makes it an !ideal! voltage source.
At T=0,the ideal voltage source is connected to the ideal inductor-->what have you just done?
Indeed the ideal voltage source has no internal resistance nor reactance.
However an ideal inductor has reactance even if it does not have resistance.
Impedance = Resistance + Reactance

That's why if an ideal voltage source is connected in series with an ideal inductor, then the current will be impeded by its reactance despite not being impeded by its resistance.

This is the reason why a simple Ohm's law i=V/R is not applicable to calculating current in an L circuit, as it totally disregards the reactance (half of the complex impedance).

verpies

Quote from: poynt99 on May 13, 2016, 09:36:42 PM
What is there that is beyond a voltage source and an inductor in series/parallel?
It seems that you are conflating the series connection of the voltage source with an inductor, with a parallel connection (across a shorted inductor) stipulated by Tinman.

verpies

Quote from: picowatt on May 13, 2016, 09:52:05 PM
As long as the current flowing is increasing or decreasing over time, the answer to both is yes.
I disagree.
Current can vary in an ideal shorted* inductor only when the flux penetrating it is varied externally somehow.

But despite that variance, there is no place to connect a voltmeter and measure the voltage or voltage drop.
...and presto!, you have a voltageless current - finite current flowing in zero resistance outside of the confines of the Ohm's law.



*  (shorted by an ideal wire, not by an ideal voltage source)