MH's ideal coil and voltage question

[tinman]

author=webby1 link=topic=16589.msg485757#msg485757 date=1465064199]

Resonance is when the external stimuli changes the amplitude without changing the frequency and this happens when the input is at or about the resonant frequency of the system.

Yes,so where is this input that is needed for the bell to resonate ?

More so,, when the input adds to the amplitude,, this can be a short pulse that reoccurs at a rate that is within the resonant frequency of the system

That is correct.

OR it can be a short pulse that reduces the amplitude

That is incorrect.
In physics, resonance describes when a vibrating system or external force drives another system to oscillate with greater amplitude at a specific preferential frequency.

When no interaction is taking place then the system will oscillate at its natural frequency forever with the same amplitude.

No it will not. The oscillating body has an elasticity value that will dampen the oscillations,and eventually the oscillations will stop.
There is no object that will oscillate,that dose not have this elasticity value,or a resistance to change,that would allow the oscillations to continue on for ever.

The amplitude can go up or down and if you think about it, if the input were to continue the amplitude would continue to increase,, with ideals it would grow to an infinite amplitude.

Lets stick to real world applications here,as we do not have ideal devices-they are a myth.


Brad

[MileHigh]

Second--i have provided the definition of an ideal torque,where torque is the application of energy to a system or object,and where that energy is ideal-->an ideal torque is an ideal energy source. An ideal torque will maintain it's chosen value,regardless of the opposition force placed upon this torque.
You not understanding this,is also another fail on your behalf.

And you fall flat on your ass for the 10,000th time.  For starters, there is no such thing as an "ideal energy source."  Plus your bloody definition doesn't even make sense.  Like I said, it just never ends.

Here is what an ideal torque would be:  A system that applies the same torque to the spinning flywheel regardless of the angular velocity of the flywheel.

If you understood what has been discussed ad infinitum already, you would realize this right away, it would be a no-brainer.  And you would never in a million years use the term "ideal energy source."

But no!  But no!

[Magluvin]

   With a capacitor do you have to look at it from the perspective of
   electrons and sort of "holes"?
           John.

Well if we take electrons from the Pos plate, then there are what they call holes which leaves that plate positively charged. And if we take those electrons and put them on the Neg plate, it becomes negatively charged as we have more electrons on the Neg plate than a cap with 0v charge.

Mags

[Magluvin]

Mags,

You do agree however that if we measure the energy burned up in the total circuit resistance involved in cap to cap transfers, it will indicate half of the total energy?

Do you not also agree that the value of the total circuit resistance makes no difference in the energy and that it does indeed always dissipate half the starting energy and that it determines the tau of the transfer?

The 0 Ohms case seems to be a special case, and one that we can not achieve.

"
You do agree however that if we measure the energy burned up in the total circuit resistance involved in cap to cap transfers, it will indicate half of the total energy?"

I agree agree in the real world.


"Do you not also agree that the value of the total circuit resistance makes no difference in the energy and that it does indeed always dissipate half the starting energy and that it determines the tau of the transfer?"

I also agree, in the real world.


"The 0 Ohms case seems to be a special case, and one that we can not achieve."

Darn tootin it is.    Here is my issue with it.

When we bring up the cap to cap loss, like back when we were talking about it when Woopy did his video and was very surprised by the 50% loss, the argument from you guys was that it was the resistance, no matter what value above 0ohm, is the cause for the loss. And you used the Ideal cap to cap, zero resistance transfer as an example of how we could get 7.07v in each cap from 10v. Well that cannot be used any longer as a proper explanation of how the energy was lost, because now we all know that we cannot get 7.07v in each cap from 10v in the ideal world.  I think people reading should know this 'now'.

So it is 'seemingly' a special case.  It can no longer be used in these arguments to prove the point that resistance is the loss. And as you say, "seems to be a special case, and one that we can not achieve", then maybe arguments using Ideal caps, ideal coils, and Ideal voltage sources that can not be achieved should not be used as examples either, because if we can not achieve them, we can not be certain of the outcome, just as we have found this kink in the cap to cap situation. Is it possible that we may find other kinks in these ideal world components as to how we thought they were by just thinking a little deeper? If we say not, then we have learned nothing in this cap to cap argument and we are just writing it off.

Or, we could put our thoughts together an try to figure out if it is more than just a special case by thinking it through further than just settling on the idea that it is a special case without explanation.  Why would we stop there?

Mags

[MileHigh]

Yes.it oscillates at it's natural resonant frequency,but the bell dose not resonate.

Alas, so near yet so far.