MH's ideal coil and voltage question

[tinman]

Absolutely. It perplexes me why you would even question this.

300 years ago,89% of the worlds population believed in God. Today only 26% of the worlds population believe in God---the rest have seen the light.

Not sure what you mean by "theory based around real world examples", but as I've already explained, and MH did also a while back, we don't need a perfectly ideal source nor inductor to prove out the equation that MH posted, which determines the final value of current in the inductor, based on the L and t, and initial current Io.

Your theory being based around real world applications,is based on the fact that there exist a resistance-no matter how small. In our ideal situation,that resistance is no existent,and no energy can be dissipated anywhere in that ideal circuit loop. The energy now stored in the ideal loop at the 0v phase ,must be dissipated before the ideal voltage can set a current flowing in the opposite direction.

Most voltage sources are close enough to ideal for this test. Yes, a rotary switch may cause some loss due to an imperfect transition.
I have already done so. A number of posts back I gave a recommendation as to the L/R ratio that would still provide results "close to ideal", at least close enough for our purposes. I established this level (50:1) by using the sim with various values of R to get 5% error on the final current. Did you miss that post? It was done with the simulation. I have already posted a partial plot of the current, did you miss that also?

No i did not miss the post.
First,i do not think you grasp the difference between a very low resistance value,and no resistance--the difference is infinite,and so the outcome has an infinite difference.
Second-the voltage in this ideal circuit is seen as being in series with the inductor,but as far as the current go's,the connection is both a series and parallel connection. So example 3 that verpies posted some time back,represents MHs circuit as far as the current flow go's,that being the inductor has a short across it's terminals as far as the current is concerned.

As I said above, I have already fully simulated the circuit, as has Partzman. I am sure our results are identical.
If you followed my posts on establishing the L/R ratio for a "close to ideal" inductor, you would know that any value of inductance can work, as long as we are aware that a 50:1 L/R ratio will present a 5% error in the current values. The current will be 5% (or thereabouts) less than the value predicted by MH's equation.

When that L/R =0,what is your ratio then?. 50:0 ?
As you can see,we went from a real world obtainable calculation,to one that dose not exist.
This is what i mean by trying to use real word values against values that just are not there,and expecting to arrive at an accurate outcome.

I have spent countless hours,and thousands of dollars on experiments--not to mention time.
I have helped those purchase equipment that they otherwise could never hope to obtain. I have spent time organizing fun competitions ,and donated prizes to those judged as being the most innovative at what they built. And yet here we have MH,sitting in his rocking chair,not lifting one finger(other than to type)to help the cause.

I will leave you with one thing to think about Poynt--->
Are the books ever going to explain the TPU?. Is what you know going to line up all perfect to that of the operation of the TPU.
Perhaps this is why it(the TPU) still alludes all those trying to replicate it's effect--your trying to place known real world values against values that are infinite--the energy being delivered by the TPU seems to have that value--infinite.

I love that saying by verpies-->just because the rest of the world got it wrong,dose not mean we have to.
Maybe we can learn something from that quote.


Brad

[tinman]

  I am pretty sure they have huge voltage inverters in them so the run off a bipolar supply.  They are giant ideal voltage sources within certain bandwidth and IV limits.  If you could hack into one so that you insert a current viewing resistor at the output such that the voltage sense is on the far side of the current viewing resistor then you should be good to go.  You just need a scope channel for the CVR and I am assuming that the car audio amp is being powered by a car battery.  You connect up your arbitrary waveform generator (or iPhone) to the amplifier.

Then perhaps go to the hardware store and buy a bunch of looped hollow copper pipe for your inductor.  There is probably a better way of doing the coil but that's the one that comes to my mind.

All that you have to do is shorten the timing and lower the voltages and you should be able to do a setup that is a very good facsimile of what we are discussing here.  As long as you don't exceed the IV capabilities of the beefy car audio amplifier you should be fine.

But of course, measurements like these were probably made thousands of times already.  What's of more value is the intellectual understanding and solving the problem on paper.  That's what we are trying to do here.

MileHigh

I already discussed simulating this in the real world on another thread.  Say you had a 2x1000-watt car audio amp.

And that is where your ideal world all falls apart.

Please explain as to why you need 2000 watts of power to simulate a circuit that dose not dissipate any power?.
Answer that,and then you may begin to understand the difference between a small resistance value,and no resistance at all.

Your circuit MH,should use no power at all,as everything put into it,should be what you get back out of it--there are no losses in an ideal circuit such as your's.
This is based on the fact that what Poynt said is true,and that you can store the energy from the loop,back into the ideal source.

So your 2000 watts are for what?.


Brad

[verpies]

It is perplexing to me to see these questions 

Oh, C'mon! - these were rhetorical questions.  I was not seeking answers to them.  I was provoking some thinking.

To clarify for all interested, one simple answer to cover all questions as to what an ideal voltage source is:
An ideal voltage source is a source that outputs a voltage according to what it is set to, no matter what load is connected to it. This does not preclude ideal function generators.

Of course, but this needs to be stated explicitly, since apparently some people are under the impression, that an ideal voltage source is a constant voltage source

[MileHigh]

Please explain as to why you need 2000 watts of power to simulate a circuit that dose not dissipate any power?.

The servo amp with high power output gives you the ability to output high currents (and sink high currents).  The amp pumps real power into the coil.  The longer you impose a constant voltage across the coil, the higher and higher the power demands get.  A high-power car audio amp gives you more headroom and flexibility to carry out various experiments.

Your circuit MH,should use no power at all.

It would seem that only in your mind can things like that be stated in all seriousness.

[poynt99]

Oh, C'mon! - these were rhetorical questions.  I was not seeking answers to them.  I was provoking some thinking.
Of course, but this needs to be stated explicitly, since apparently some people are under the impression, that an ideal voltage source is a constant voltage source

C'mon yourself. Your question about whether MH knows what an ideal voltage source is, is absolute bunk.

After that it seemed you were the one that was lost. I encourage you to avoid the so-called rhetorical questions, and instead try to help Brad understand why his thinking on this affair is a little off the tracks.