An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?

[darediamond]

An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Electric-Motor ?

   Could this create a self-running-device.
   
   SPECIFICALLY, what I'm wondering is, is there no combination of Electric-Motor and Electric-Generator that will result in the Generator,  outputting more electricity than was inputted into the Electric-Motor  ?

    And of course,  applying this principle to  Solid-State-Self-Running-Devices, I'm especially referring to the claim that the Figuera-Device  was self-running when it ran an  electric-motor.
    See my following post on the  Figuera thread :
    http://overunity.com/12794/re-inventing-the-wheel-part1-clemente_figuera-the-infinite-energy-machine/msg489301/#msg489301

   (  This also involves energy storage in spinning-electric-motors / spinning-electric-generators  )
____________
     So,

       - What if you used an Unusually-Highly-Efficient  Electric-Motor,  to turn an  :

      ( 1 ) -  Unusually-Highly-Efficient  Electrostatic-Generator( like a Wimhurst-Generator )
           Or,
      ( 2 ) - An Unusually-Highly-Efficient  Radially-Designed Electrophorus-Electrical-Generator
           Or,
      ( 3 ) - An Unusually-Highly-Efficient  Homopolar-Disc-Electrical-Generator
_________________
   Different Subject
   - Could A Device Be Made,  That Would Output A Bigger Electromagnetic-Field Than The Electromagnetic-Field Inputted Into The Device  ?
      What about instead of measuring  the electrical-input of the device,  and it's electrical-output,   you measured it's input electromagnetic-field inputted into the device,  and the electromagnetic-field outputted from the device.
     Yes I Know,    that the electrical-input should be the exact equivalent of the  electromagnetic-field inputted,   but what if there is some sort of  anomaly occurring,  maybe due to different materials used in one part of the device, to that of another .

First of all, you can not use Readymade Electric Motors and Generators to achieve with ease overunity power generation.

You must at least make your Motor yourself.

And if you wanna get say 5000W of Horsepower equivalence using 100W or lower, then you must utilize Twisted Serial Connected Multifilar (NOT BIFILAR) to make your Air core High Voltage (minimum of 500v DC) Motor Coils.

Best is to arrange your coils in axial so as to use 2 sides of the coils. Neodymium Permanent Magnet is what must be on your rotor. Use N52 grade of neodimium P.M.

You must connect your coils in Series. This is the part of the Secrets.

You must use High Voltage because Lenz do not have high grip on a coil powered with high Voltage.

You must use thin gauge like 0.31mm AWG30 or SWG28 to make your twisted Multifilar Coils.

You do not need any power from the Generator.to keep it going. Just simply harvest the amperage energised back emf using High Voltage High Frequency Fast Recovery or Fast Switch.or High Frequency  Diode like HER208 http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=AS_20160816203440&SearchText=HER208

The rule is if iu supply 500V to a coil, you should expect 5000v kickback or back e.m.f voltage. And that means you will need a stepdown transformer and Additional high frequency diodes to get the back emf  at low voltage and return it back your battery or SuperCacitor Bank.

The Stepdown transformer Primary must be wound with Twisted Multifilar Wire as well to get the best results.

Best to use Very thick gauge in the secondary of the Stepdown Trafo to get low voltage as low as 9Vac but high amperage and use your high frequency diode to rectify it and then pass that 9VAC to a Powerful Step Up Converter which is being Sold here http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=200004727&initiative_id=AS_20160816203335&SearchText=dc-dc+600w+boost+converter

Just add in series the 1KVDC diodes to match in 20 fold your supplied voltge to your coil because itnis good to have excess safe rannge.


You can additional apply Garry Stanley Lenzlesss Motor Coil connection style where he split one coil into 2 and wind both in Same direction and connect them in Parallel or Wind in each in opposite directions and connect them in series.

Serch for Gary Stanley Motor on Google to learn more.


Now as.for your Generator Coils or Alternator coils, make sure you use.very thich gauge to mke it coils and you must arrange them in axial too. Neodymium Permanent Magnet must be used here and N52 is the best grade to putnon your Rotors.

Here also, you can apply Chris Hykes Lenzless Generator Coil Configuration which he normally called "Bucking Coil"

What is done here is to split your Gen or.Alternator Coils into 2 and wind in Opposite directions and connect there leads in parallel as well.

However, two leads will be joined together and one High frequency diodes leads one of the remaining 2 leads to a dc capacitor.

Attached is a cercuit you need to link each coil in your Axial Gen or Dynamo or Alternator together.

[lancaIV]

darediamond:
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=FR&NR=2112768A5&KC=A5&FT=D&ND=3&date=19720623&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP
it is modular ! More discs = more power !

Small or bigger ,lever advantage included nr 26/ 27 /28 :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?page=1&IN=&TI=&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&PN=&ST=advanced&AB=&PR=&PD=&IC=&CPC=&Submit=Search&AP=&PA=oskar+becker
from 27. some sentences translated :
If, for example, one meter wide radius of the rotating plate, or an engine long lever arm, the effect of produced magnetic force is about ten times on the axis of rotation.  At two meters large radius or two meter long lever arms is the effect of the generated magnetic force to the rotational axis about twenty times larger.  acting on the axis of rotation forces are equal masses multiplied by the number of magnet groups, thirty magnet groups respectively three hundred times at( 1 meter disc), for example. six hundred times(2 mtr disc).  It may act on the same axis now more of these sets of magnets and magnetic extension several group rounds, so that the sample value of three or six hundred further reproduced.

1 mtr radius á 10 X magnetic force x 30 magnet groups = 300x force amplification
2 mtr radius á 20 X magnetic force x 30 magnet groups = 600x force amplification
                                                For 1 disc arrangement !
                                                More discs= more kinetic power
The "Secret":
The power requirements, whether for a pulse or attraction for many, remains constant even if the number of pulses up to several thousand attraction is minute because the attraction pulses occur in order in fractions of seconds. So it never occur more attraction pulses simultaneously. The power generator has therefore always to supply only the current for an electric magnet. 
feedback circuit


This lever principle is also the reason why the wind power tower becomes so big !
http://www.power-technology.com/features/featurethe-worlds-biggest-wind-turbines-4154395/
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Using your delivered e-magnet circuit which results should we expect ?

The e-magnets ( rotor or stator or rotor and stator) with capacitive windings :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=WO&NR=2009154492A2&KC=A2&FT=D&ND=3&date=20091223&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP
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But here now begins the hard work to combinate physics,engineering and technics to reach the wished result : save and cheap power production !
Which material,weight,hardness,new-used(scrabb),precision,tools, et cetera .... for the motor part.
Then the right generator DC,pulsed DC,AC - Voltage,RPMs ........ for permanent or only periodic use !
And there are motors which need starter help and also self-starter.

Many electricity user ( I probably too) whose want to get cheap energy would become "TILT!" if
they would have to translate this paper theory -by DIY manner- to a real working machine drive :

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?FT=D&date=19810224&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=4253053A&KC=A&ND=5
or
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=4&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19850528&CC=US&NR=4520300A&KC=A
and
here -to see- the mechanism complex outside the motor-stator/rotor :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=3&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19780418&CC=US&NR=4085355A&KC=A

                                     Technical Standart : 1976 
                                                                     2016:
             FUZZY or mad logic ? "neuronal learning software" controlled drive

Recitating :
You must use High Voltage because Lenz do not have high grip on a coil powered with high Voltage.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=5&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20060125&CC=EP&NR=1618644A2&KC=A2
[0038]    To start the motor 28, ignition switch 55 causes battery 54 to supply electrical power to control module 56 to initiate the turning of rotors 30a-d. In one embodiment, the battery voltage is converted to a minimum of 10 kV through an ignition coil in order to start the motor 28. After motor 28 has started, electrical power generated by alternator 50 sustains the operation of the control module without an external power source. Alternator 50 also charges battery 54 as necessary. 

Garry Stanley related:
his motor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxze3Qoh1AI
and circuit http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5911-garry-stanley-pulse-motor.html

[guest1289]

   Re: An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?

      Are  'Charge-Separation'  based  electricity-generating  devices like  the  'Electrophorus' ,  'Leyden-Jar',  'Capacitors',  'Wimshurst-Machines',    more powerful  than  common-generators.
   
         For  example,   if you use  'x-amount'  of  energy  to drive  a   'ROTARY-Designed-Electrophorus' ,   and you use the same  'x-amount'  of  energy  to drive  a   common-generator,   which would produce more energy.
_________________ 

          On the other threads on this site it does seem as though SUCCESSFUL    Solid-State-Free-Energy-Generators(  'concepts' )  are now  being  successfully  regularly  replicated,  ones that  just use coils( and cores? ),  so I assume that because of that there would be little reason to try anything  non-solid-state  . 

[sm0ky2]

wow, so there a lot that should be said on this thread....
where to begin?


ok, lets start with the general concept.
Motor + Generator = Output
thermodynamics said this is impossible with 'closed systems'.
What about 'open systems'? Well, thermodynamics does not cover this area, such is free game.

What is the difference?  Well, the difference has been notably identified in the context above ^^^^

Let's look at a standard motor and generator.
The question came up about AC/DC.
Let me tell you now that ALL motors and Generators are A/C.
a DC motor or DC generator, is simply an A/C motor or generator with an added commutator to make it DC.
This knowledge comes from dissecting every motor and generator I have ever come across
as well as straight from the horses mouth: Said by Tesla - the man who INVENTED the MOTOR AND GENERATOR!!!

These are 'closed systems', no two conventional motor and generator combinations will produce more
than is required to keep the system running.
Ohm's law, and its' derivatives cover this extensively, with respect to low voltage induction.

The system becomes 'open' when voltage potentials exceed that of the system boundaries insulative potential maximum.
At this point, the system is directly connected to the environment around the machine.
Can the theory of Thermodynamics close this box? sure, if we had the ability to calculate the energy potential of
every atom or molecule within the radius of the electric field......
But if we did, what we would see is an energy potential well that exponentially exceeds the output of the machine.
thus, any such 'open system' can draw an amount of energy greater than that which initiated the process.
E=mc^2

There are several such systems already around us, (nuclear power keeps your lights on) but they are masked, and hidden in plain sight, while the indoctrinated educational system tells us such is "impossible".

As it pertains to electrostatic machines, These are inherently 'open systems', they rely on the ionization potential of two moving charges, and the capacitance of the atmosphere around them (which is comparably infinite)

The "input energy" of these machines is defined by a frictional coefficient.
and ONLY this frictional coefficient.

The frictional energy drain of moving the charges, in no way shape or discernible form, relates to the energy required to bring two OPPOSING charges together.
--- a process which is self propagating!!!
+ attracts -
if separated in motion:  + induces more -, and - induces more +!!!!
such induction does not ADD to the frictional coefficient, but SUBTACTS from it.

This occurs with any opposing force, but there is a distinction.
lets use magnetism as a closely related example -
north and south attract each other, but once there, there Is a potential energy barrier to overcome to separate the two forces.

An electrostatic machine avoids this negative 'attraction' (or repulsion from the other perspective) by placement of a Neutralizing Bar.
therefore, the gain in energy is only in a positive direction to the rotation.

Electrostatic machines are inherently 'overunity' with respect to a 'closed system' induction generator.

Is it truly a violation of Thermodynamic Theory? No. It simply does not apply in the way we use the theory.
or more accurately, we are not advanced enough to apply Thermodynamic Theory to an 'open system'.

The net result is the same, is requires less energy to induce electrostatic (ionic) charges than is gained from discharging them.

In the same manner that it requires More energy to induce electric charges, than is gained from discharging them.
This is because we are drawing from the atomic potential well of all the molecules involved. shortening their lifespan (decay rate).
E = mc^2
With a conventional Generator, we are forcing more electric charge onto the nucleus than naturally exists, thus lengthening the lifespan of the copper atoms in the coils.

electrostatic generators are indirect 'solar power'.
The stars evolve the atoms and molecules,
electrostatic induction unevolves them, resulting in high electric potentials.

So to compare the two types of machines, is like Apples and ....... their seeds...
How many seeds are in an Apple?  How many Apples are in those seeds?

Take a volume of space, add up all the potential energies of all the atoms and molecules in that space.
Then give that volume of your environment an 'electrical value'.
This is the size of your battery, the electrostatic machine simply drains that.

The electrophorus is basically the same thing, it just has an exponentially higher frictional coefficient.

because of the constant rubbing contact.

Note - that a properly designed electrostatic machine need not make frictional contact to induce the charges!

The "N-Machine", or Homopolar Motor/Generator, is more closely related in technology to its' cousin, the conventional electric generator.

Brute Force vs Natural Processes.

This distinction is very important.
Brute force will never = OU
Natural Process.... Already does

[guest1289]

   The Following Relates To  Energy-Amplification  Via  Geometrical-Means,   For Example,  A Motor With A Large-Wheel On It's Axle,  And That Large-Wheel Turns A Small-Wheel Which Is On The Axle Of A Generator.

   Faraday's First Motors,  And Generators, Seem To Have No Points Of Electromagnetic-Friction,  So,  I'm Thinking If They Would be Ideal To Test Out The Theories Of  'Energy-Amplification'  Via Geometrical-Means/'Purely-Mechanical/Electrical'( Geometrical-Means, see above)  Designs,  Which Are Usually Discredited Due To Torque( I'm referring to torque from electromagnetic-friction, not to inertia/weight friction ).

    ( Although,  I assume that faraday's initial generators( and subsequent others) did in fact have problems with electromagnetic-friction( electromagnetic-eddies ) that they created )

   -  The question was asked on another thread on this website,  that if  when the speed of  faraday's-homopolar-generator  is increased,  whether or not it generates more voltage,   I think the only answer provided,   was that  faraday's-homopolar-generator  needs a very high rpm to generate any power.

    I posted some of my designs/ideas for electric-motors that could have no electromagnetic-friction on the following webpage,  and assumedly if any of those would function,  then they could also function as generators.
    http://overunity.com/16822/would-a-dc-motor-rotate-inside-a-ring-magnet/