An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Motor ?

[guest1289]

An Electric-Motor Turning An Electric-Generator Which Powers The Same Electric-Motor ?

   Could this create a self-running-device.
   
   SPECIFICALLY, what I'm wondering is, is there no combination of Electric-Motor and Electric-Generator that will result in the Generator,  outputting more electricity than was inputted into the Electric-Motor  ?

    And of course,  applying this principle to  Solid-State-Self-Running-Devices, I'm especially referring to the claim that the Figuera-Device  was self-running when it ran an  electric-motor.
    See my following post on the  Figuera thread :
    http://overunity.com/12794/re-inventing-the-wheel-part1-clemente_figuera-the-infinite-energy-machine/msg489301/#msg489301

   (  This also involves energy storage in spinning-electric-motors / spinning-electric-generators  )
____________
     So,

       - What if you used an Unusually-Highly-Efficient  Electric-Motor,  to turn an  :

      ( 1 ) -  Unusually-Highly-Efficient  Electrostatic-Generator( like a Wimhurst-Generator )
           Or,
      ( 2 ) - An Unusually-Highly-Efficient  Radially-Designed Electrophorus-Electrical-Generator
           Or,
      ( 3 ) - An Unusually-Highly-Efficient  Homopolar-Disc-Electrical-Generator
_________________
   Different Subject
   - Could A Device Be Made,  That Would Output A Bigger Electromagnetic-Field Than The Electromagnetic-Field Inputted Into The Device  ?
      What about instead of measuring  the electrical-input of the device,  and it's electrical-output,   you measured it's input electromagnetic-field inputted into the device,  and the electromagnetic-field outputted from the device.
     Yes I Know,    that the electrical-input should be the exact equivalent of the  electromagnetic-field inputted,   but what if there is some sort of  anomaly occurring,  maybe due to different materials used in one part of the device, to that of another .

[Dog-One]

According to Paul Babcock (him, not me), it is possible to build a motor that will produce one horsepower using less than 746 watts of electrical power.  If this is a true statement, you could connect that motor of his to a conventional generator.

A possible improvement to a complete self-running system is to use something like Jim Murray's Dynaflux Alternator instead of a conventional generator.  If those two guys and their devices are the real-deal, then it "should be" quite possible to have a self-running system capable of powering at least a few external devices or charge batteries.

Seems to me though, if one can build a motor that is not also generator and a generator that is not also motor, then these two concepts should be engineerable into a single device that self-runs and produces a usable output.  A good understanding of the necessary geometry needed would put these concepts on the map.  I know there is at least one member of this forum working on just such a solution.

[marathonman]

just a little device i came up with that theoretically just might work and might fit the bill.

[Magluvin]

Just a couple of things..

Back in the early 1900s my great grandfather had such a device, as my grandfather told me many times. He had 2 electric motors connected at the shaft and all the wires wen to small box with a switch mounted to it. Flip the switch and give it a turn by hand and off it went. He had shown it around town. Soon he was threatened by the gov and oil companies. Back then mind you.  In more recent years reading on Tesla, he was working with Westinghouse in Pittsburgh, 60mi from where My Great Grandfather lived, in the town I grew up. Great Grandpa also had dealings with Westinghouse on ideas to improve the air brake systems of the time. So it is possible he knew Tesla.

My Grandfather seemed to believe the answer was in the box with the switch. These days Im thinking it was in the motors, or at least one of them. Before Teslas A/C motors were mainstream, DC motors were well known and used.  So what Im thinking is that possibly at least one of the motors were AC. Had watched a couple vids on Tesla. One was a movie made about him in 1980, and the other was on the learning channel.  Something struck me, and it should have some time ago. The main idea of each vid was that AC was way more efficient than DC. So my question is now, does that efficiency occur in a properly developed AC motor, or even a gen?

If AC can travel greater distances on a wire with little loss as compared to DC, then what of a winding of a motor that has many turns?

As for my Great Grandpas setup on a plank of wood, if he had started it by hand, then I have to think they had some permanent magnets involved. And Id have to say they were not as good as we have today.  In the Tesla movie, near the beginning he was showing Edison a diagram of his idea for an AC generator. And the armature seemed to be a big magnet, showing no wires or brushes.  It was a movie, so we cant say that it was so for sure.



Now the other thing..

Been working with the mechanical resonance with coils and mags.  There was one configuration that when using the same magnets and coils for the drive side and gen side, I was able to get more voltage out(AC in and AC out) than the input.  Working on other mechanical configurations, I have come close to having an output voltage that is close to the input. All still using the same coils and mags for the inputs.  Im still working on these things. Trying different ways of having the coils interact with the magnets for best effect. And the best config to get the higher output voltage compared to the input voltage used the same mags and coils for the driver and gen, but the position of the coil to the magnet for each was a bit off to get these results. In the pics below I show the mag/coil config, then the device in motion with larger N52 mags, and the scope shot of the yel trace is sine input and blue trace is sine output.  The scope shot is not showing the freq of the device. For some reason maybe the noise was affecting it and the freq was just less than 10hz.

So Im in the process of determining if it is resonance that is creating the gain, or is it that a motor doesnt make a good gen, nor does a gen make a great motor either. As in, I position the drive coil for the max movement of the pendulum, then I adjust the position of the pickup coil to show the most voltage.  I know that a voltage measurement is not a sine of greater in than out, but to have an identical drive and gen coil, using identical magnets, to get more voltage out of the gen coil than what is put into the drive coil is not a common thing. And this is very low freq, straight sine wave in and no switching. Putting the 2 coils face to face without the mags shows virtually nill on the gen coil. Low voltages Im working with here.

So to conclude, 2 identical motors connected shaft to shaft is guaranteed to have less voltage out than what is going in. Like is it possible that maybe adjusting the brush angles of one of the 2 motors make it a better gen? ?   Im going for voltage comparison here mainly because I think if the driver and gen are identical electrically and the same magnets for each, if you connect them shaft to shaft and you get more voltage out, then I think that is a great start. A barrier breached as far as Im concerned. If we need to run the drive motor off of the gen output, the gen needs to produce more voltage at the same rpm of the drive motor. And if the gen didnt require more turns of wire to produce that higher output voltage, that is a puzzle we have to solve.


Mags

[Magluvin]

Had some misspellings and wrong words in places of my last post. Was ready for bed.  Cant modify any longer. But you should still get the drift.

Mags