Magnets, motion and measurement

[ayeaye]

Just a circular V-gate.
The problem you had with the spot where the magnet wouldn't align,
Is where the field terminates.

No, it is not V-gate, the magnets are at equal distance from the edge of the disk. One thing that can be certainly said, is that it is not V-gate.

Now it was meant to be, that the force near the peak of the first magnet, is equal when moving in both directions. That it is equal, can only be felt by hand in that design. Yet one can feel that the forces really are equal, when doing it oneself. Both are as close to the peak of the force, as possible, and i did all i could to move it as close to the peak of force both times, as ever possible. I also tried it several times, and found that it was so several times, whatever can be the error of the hand, it is not the same several times.

Now considering that the forces in both direction were equal, it moved two times more by the chain of magnets, than in the opposite direction. And the chain of magnets was not V-gate. This indicates overunity.

In theory it should rotate continuously, having such chain of magnets. But it doesn't, because the overunity is not greater than friction.

[kolbacict]

https://youtu.be/VccPX8Dq6yo
it doesn't rotate either. This is what I myself came up with.

[ayeaye]

Citfta, you think, but do you let me to think?

What to think, is just in general, what do we deal with?

Both your and my experiments are about overunity due to asymmetry of the magnetic field, that is caused by it having two poles.

I think the force when shifting the shield magnet in your experiment is only friction, as it seems to remain constant during all shifting.

In that case it can be considered that your experiment did show overunity, and the measurement also showed it, but again the overunity that cannot overcome friction. And it may be said that my experiment did the same.

Now if true, there are two ways to overcome this. Decrease friction, or increase overunity. In my case for the latter, like maybe the shape of the field can be changed by adding some shielding to every magnet, so that the propulsion would increase. I'm not completely sure about that.

But friction, it cannot be infinitely decreased, and it is greater, the greater are the forces causing it. So it may be a problem that cannot be overcome, better ball bearings may not help.

But it is extremely important to understand and find out what we deal with. No overunity, or overunity that cannot overcome friction. There is a huge difference between the two.

In the latter case we really found overunity, and we showed that in an experiment. Which i think could been the case in my experiment. You maybe have to find out more whether it also could be the case in your experiment. Congratulation then, then you really did show overunity.

Just to see the difference between overunity that cannot overcome friction, and the experiments like these which kolbacict just did, like V-gate. This has no overunity in theory, and also the experiments don't show any overunity. So there is a great difference, the former can be called overunity experiments, and the latter only permanent magnet experiments, playing with magnets.

[ayeaye]

The Citfta's experiment with the shield magnet, also has no overunity in the Coulomb model, that is when the poles are considered to be point charges. Correct me if i'm wrong. The attraction and repulsion of the shield magnet will then always be equal for both the left and right magnets, but the repulsion between them will remain the same no matter whether the shield magnet is in between or not. That is by the Coulomb model, it is as if the shield magnet were not there, its effect is zero and it does no shielding.

Thus when there is any overunity in that device, even disregarding friction, that the Citfta's experiment seems to show, then it is again due to the real magnetic fields differing from the Coulomb model. That is again, when there is asymmetry in the magnetic field. In the Coulomb model the fields of the poles are spherical, that is symmetric, and maybe then it can also be said that the magnetic field is symmetric. But real magnetic fields differ from the Coulomb model, and thus may be asymmetric.

The asymmetry of the magnetic field may be seen as fields of the poles not being spherical or such, any difference from the Coulomb model, where both poles are considered to be separate spherical fields. And the distribution of the field strength may also differ due to interaction.

My another two cents.

[ayeaye]

That said, i think Citfta's and my experiments should be simulated with FEMM. FEM using Maxwell equations may show the kind of asymmetry that i talked about, and thus maybe also overunity. Some say that some simulations of permanent magnet devices have showed overunity, though they were not physically made showing overunity. Maybe the reason was friction again, i have not studied these cases. FEMM is not very difficult to use as a software, they sure tried to make it as easy to use as possible. But going into the simulation requires certain work of course. FEMM is in Windows though, and i use Linux. And i don't have enough time for such work. Interesting though, neither experiments show overunity by the Coulomb model, do they do by the Maxwell equations.

I think that this is all i can say by now. What i want to say is that the reason for overunity may be a certain asymmetry of the magnetic field, in that when a pole is seen as a point, the field near it is not completely spherical, or not always completely spherical. Different from the Coulomb model where the field around a pole is always perfectly spherical. This is a kind of asymmetry that one cannot easily see. Say we draw a line between the two poles of a magnet, and other line crossing that line perpendicularly in the middle. The field is symmetric at the both sides of the first line, and at the both sides of the second line, a perfect four sector symmetry. Yet it still may be asymmetric in another way, in that the field near a pole may not always be completely spherical.