Magnets, motion and measurement

[Floor]

My assesment of the design in the jpg file (below, yours)  is that it is a poor one.  It MIGHT result in some SMALL reduction of force between the outer magnets.  But also the drawing is a very incomplete comunication.  It leaves out too much needed description.

Here are those links again, to some videos of effective ahielding.
There are many other videos at that location "seethisvid" channel at daily motion. com


1. this video, titled "amazeing"  @
                          https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

2. or this variation, watch this video, titled "RtAngSld"   @
                          https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59r978                         

3. or to see a completely different method of neutralizing magnet force as in this video,
titled "TDForceDiagramed"

                            at 2 minutes and 50 seconds into the video
watch                  https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wfk0d

4. or to see yet another, completely different method of neutralizing magnet actions (by brute force)
see this video @
                             https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

5. or to see a completely different method of neutralizing magnet force as in this video, titled "TDForceDiagramed"

6. or watch this video titled "direct approach"  @
                                                                        https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xgiez

7. or this video titles "Floor's brute force neutralization part 1"  @
                                                                       https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0md2

8. or  this video titles "Floor's brute force neutralization part 2"  @
                                                                       https://www.dailymotion.com/videox7f0o4w

                                   SEE THIS "Newton's magnets" PDF BELOW
                https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/dlattach/attach/171711/


     floor

[ayeaye]

But also the drawing is a very incomplete comunication.

You did not give an answer. Referring to all your videos and papers, saying that the answer is somewhere inside these, is not an answer.

The question is, what shields the forces between the left and right magnets. You in essence said balancing. I showed by drawing that these forces are not anyhow balanced. Unless there is some unknown way how they are, that you didn't explain. I concluded then by Occam's razor, that the shielding between the left and right magnets there should be ordinary shielding by the magnetic material. An ordinary shielding like a piece of iron shields.

The matter is, not the experiments, nor the theory shows that there may be any overunity. Make no mistake, i very much wanted to see the evidence of overunity, even if it's less than friction. But you have not shown that in your case there may be any overunity.

Thus unless you show any theoretical reason why there should be overunity in your case, or show experimentally that there is overunity, there is no importance of your work. One can show many fancy ways how magnets interact, and it may be interesting for some, but what is important in this forum is overunity research.

[citfta]

You did not give an answer. Referring to all your videos and papers, saying that the answer is somewhere inside these, is not an answer.

The question is, what shields the forces between the left and right magnets. You in essence said balancing. I showed by drawing that these forces are not anyhow balanced. Unless there is some unknown way how they are, that you didn't explain. I concluded then by Occam's razor, that the shielding between the left and right magnets there should be ordinary shielding by the magnetic material. An ordinary shielding like a piece of iron shields.

The matter is, not the experiments, nor the theory shows that there may be any overunity. Make no mistake, i very much wanted to see the evidence of overunity, even if it's less than friction. But you have not shown that in your case there may be any overunity.

Thus unless you show any theoretical reason why there should be overunity in your case, or show experimentally that there is overunity, there is no importance of your work. One can show many fancy ways how magnets interact, and it may be interesting for some, but what is important in this forum is overunity research.

You are incorrect that the magnet shields like ordinary iron would shield.  If you replace the center magnet with a piece of iron or steel both magnets would be attracted strongly to the piece of iron.  There would be NO shielding.  In the video I posted measuring the forces with the fish scale that you object to I show that it takes almost no force to move the shield magnet into position.  If I had used iron for a "shield" the iron would have been pulled forcefully into the "shield" position.


Floor has spent countless hours doing his testing and experimenting.  I have learned a lot from studying his videos and PDFs.  If you would actually take the time to study them and try some of his experiments instead of bashing his efforts you might actually learn something.  And if you want to promote your ideas about asymmetry of magnetic fields PLEASE start your OWN thread about that.


Respectfully,
Carroll

[ayeaye]

If you replace the center magnet with a piece of iron or steel both magnets would be attracted strongly to the piece of iron.

So you say, then there will be no balancing. Right but, the matter is, magnet can at the same time work as a magnet, and its magnetic material work as a shield. And this magnetic material in the magnet does the shielding, not the magnetic field. The way it shields is then in principle not different from a piece of iron, the only difference then is that it in addition to that woks as a magnet.

Also, in your experiment the left magnet attracted to the shield magnet, that it was not supposed to do. This also may show that the shield magnet worked as an ordinary shield, and the left magnet attracted to its magnetic material, as magnet attracts to shield.

> In the video I posted measuring the forces with the fish scale that you object to I show that it takes almost no force to move the shield magnet into position.

No, moving the shield magnet takes in fact a lot of force there. That is, the force is not great, but the distance moved is great, and thus the energy spent for that is very great. What takes energy in case of ordinary shield, is moving it out from between two magnets, because moving it in and out when there is one magnet, compensates each other, but that it has to be moved out with an additional magnet, is not compensated.

This is why there is no overunity when using an ordinary shielding, even not when disregarding friction. Neither could i see that the forces when moving the shield magnet in, and when moving it out, were equal.

> Floor has spent countless hours doing his testing and experimenting.  I have learned a lot from studying his videos and PDFs.  If you would actually take the time to study them and try some of his experiments instead of bashing his efforts you might actually learn something.

I'm not bashing his efforts. But i'm sorry, i'm not about learning everything that Floor has done, i'm talking about one thing. And this thing happens to be related to what Floor did.

But you are hindering my efforts, don't you see. And not only my efforts. Because then it may go, Floor already found a solution for overunity, thus any research of the asymmetry of the magnetic fields is useless. And then anything about magnets, motion, and measurement, will of course be about what Floor did. Not sure it were right even if it were the case, but in addition, it is also not certain at all that Floor has found any overunity, even a theoretical one.

It of course also depends on you. And if you show by measurements that there is overunity, even when disregarding friction, then i will very highly appreciate you. And one aim of this forum will be fulfilled, the first time overunity was shown, very important for everyone. But we are not there yet, and you yet have to show that there was any energy gain, i said you may disregard friction, or show that there was no energy gain, whatever is true in the reality, in the god's nature, as Faraday said.

[gyulasun]

Hi ayeaye,

You wrote:

So you say, then there will be no balancing. Right but, the matter is, magnet can at the same time work as a magnet, and its magnetic material work as a shield. And this magnetic material in the magnet does the shielding, not the magnetic field. The way it shields is then in principle not different from a piece of iron, the only difference then is that it in addition to that woks as a magnet.   

Well, this is simply wrong!  Please consider how the magnetic permeability of the material of a permanent magnet changes when it is magnetized by a manufacturer to get a permanent magnet in the end of the manufacturing process.
Before the magnetization, the material surely has a permeability like the so called ferromagnetic materials (a normal iron or ferrite piece) have got i.e. a permanent magnet would attract to them. This is because their permeability is simply higher than 1 i.e. higher than that of the air. And the moment these materials are magnetized by a very strong current pulse, they become a permanent magnet but their magnetic permeability is reduced down very near to 1 ! They are said to be almost fully saturated magnetically.
This means that they as a magnetic material are "dead" and could be almost fully transparent to other magnetic fields as if they were not present at all i.e. they would behave to outside magnetic fields like air. Of course they function as a permanent magnet but they would not behave for instance as a shield like a soft iron plate normally behaves between two permanent magnets for instance. Understand? You cannot say the magnetic material of a permanent magnet can work as a "shield".   

Also, in your experiment the left magnet attracted to the shield magnet, that it was not supposed to do. This also may show that the shield magnet worked as an ordinary shield, and the left magnet attracted to its magnetic material, as magnet attracts to shield.

> In the video I posted measuring the forces with the fish scale that you object to I show that it takes almost no force to move the shield magnet into position.

No, moving the shield magnet takes in fact a lot of force there. That is, the force is not great, but the distance moved is great, and thus the energy spent for that is very great. What takes energy in case of ordinary shield, is moving it out from between two magnets, because moving it in and out when there is one magnet, compensates each other, but that it has to be moved out with an additional magnet, is not compensated.

This is why there is no overunity when using an ordinary shielding, even not when disregarding friction. Neither could i see that the forces when moving the shield magnet in, and when moving it out, were equal.   

What you noted for Citfta above is also wrong: the attraction was due to the slightly unbalanced attract - repel forces between the magnets. Member Floor demonstrated how well these attract and repel forces can be balanced so that in his precise setups the moving magnets (call them shields if you like) can be moved with very small outside force. This small force was demonstrated by Citfta too! even if his setup was not as precisely balanced as that of Floor.  Yet you deduce from his video that "moving the shield magnet takes in fact a lot of force, etc".  I understand that you refer to the long distance the "shield" magnets should cover and that this may involve "a lot of" input work but if the input force is very small, then the input work can also be small even though the displacement is long. And confront this with the strong repel force the two facing magnets exert on each other and one of them or both move out. Yes, the initial big repel force would be reduced by the square of the distance , yet the work done by the repel forces "feels" higher than the input work. If you build such setup, you would surely "feel" that... 

Dear ayeaye, have you built a setup Floor has been showing in his videos ? or Citfta has shown?  This is the only way to feel the forces by your fingers and then you can measure these forces by a suitable force meter if you wish to do so. But first a robust and magnetically well balanced setup should be built with as little friction for the moving magnets as possible. 

> Floor has spent countless hours doing his testing and experimenting.  I have learned a lot from studying his videos and PDFs.  If you would actually take the time to study them and try some of his experiments instead of bashing his efforts you might actually learn something.

I'm not bashing his efforts. But i'm sorry, i'm not about learning everything that Floor has done, i'm talking about one thing. And this thing happens to be related to what Floor did.

But you are hindering my efforts, don't you see. And not only my efforts. Because then it may go, Floor already found a solution for overunity, thus any research of the asymmetry of the magnetic fields is useless. And then anything about magnets, motion, and measurement, will of course be about what Floor did. Not sure it were right even if it were the case, but in addition, it is also not certain at all that Floor has found any overunity, even a theoretical one.

It of course also depends on you. And if you show by measurements that there is overunity, even when disregarding friction, then i will very highly appreciate you. And one aim of this forum will be fulfilled, the first time overunity was shown, very important for everyone. But we are not there yet, and you yet have to show that there was any energy gain, i said you may disregard friction, or show that there was no energy gain, whatever is true in the reality, in the god's nature, as Faraday said.

It is funny your saying: "you are not about learning everything that Floor has done".   If your circumstances are such that precise and robust mechanical construction is not readily possible or available for you, that is understandable.  But in this case you are not in a position to compare his setup to your research on the assymetry of magnetic fields.  Let me ask: what is your problem with "And then anything about magnets, motion, and measurement, will of course be about what Floor did." ?   If you do not wish to evalute Floor setup in practice, built as Floor did, then there is no comparison base between his and your research, hence no sense for worry. 

Sorry to chime in with this long post, hopefully this helps you, I am not against you or anyone else, just try to clarify mistakes, wrong interpretations.   

Merry Christmas to you all!
Gyula