Magnets, motion and measurement

[ayeaye]

Well, this is simply wrong!

How can you so simply say that? Magnetic permeability changes on different magnetic materials, and we don't even know what the magnetic permeability was on the magnets used in that experiment, also how strongly they were magnetized.

The matter is, Floor said, it is not about ordinary shielding. But gave no explanation whatsoever what the shielding there is caused by. Thus i conclude by Occam's razor that it may be caused by an ordinary shielding.

It's like you see that two people are against each other, and rushed to defend one of them. But it is not about people, we have to find out how it really is.

I didn't come to this forum because of my desire to subordinate to authorities, i came here for a very different reason. If one has a desire to subordinate to authorities, then there are much better places for that than this forum.

> the attraction was due to the slightly unbalanced attract - repel forces between the magnets

And they were very well balanced when moving the shield magnet out, you said it required very little force. Something doesn't add up there, or does?

> I understand that you refer to the long distance the "shield" magnets should cover and that this may involve "a lot of" input work but if the input force is very small, then the input work can also be small even though the displacement is long. And confront this with the strong repel force the two facing magnets exert on each other and one of them or both move out.

I calculated the input and output energies there, in this very thread, and found that the input energy was considerably greater, in most due to the energy of moving the shield magnet. Which may be because of friction, but may also be due to energy needed to move an ordinary shielding. I did these calculations in this same thread, you criticize me, but it seems that you don't even read what i write, even if it is relevant to the matter.

> If your circumstances are such that precise and robust mechanical construction is not readily possible or available for you, that is understandable.  But in this case you are not in a position to compare his setup to your research on the assymetry of magnetic fields.

This doesn't follow. I also don't think that Floor is ever going to replicate my experiment. But in my experiment i measured input and output energies, and output was greater. Also i provided an explanation what it is likely caused by, iron filings show asymmetry of the magnetic field, which i also showed. So my experiment was better in that respect, it provided a clear and consistent result, different from the Floor's experiment where is not clear what it does or does not show, or does it show anything relevant to overunity. Even in spite that i didn't measure the initial forces, but moved it as close to the peak as possible. All was not measured in the Citfta's experiment either, if it were properly measured, we could now say for sure whether the effect was caused by ordinary shielding or not, but it cannot be said by now.

What i appreciate about Citfta though, was that the first time i saw that the forces were really measured. This was a great step forward. And in spite it was difficult, i was able to do the energy calculations based on his video, capturing the experiment in video alone was enough to enable that.

> Let me ask: what is your problem with "And then anything about magnets, motion, and measurement, will of course be about what Floor did." ?   If you do not wish to evalute Floor setup in practice, built as Floor did, then there is no comparison base between his and your research, hence no sense for worry.

So i shouldn't worry, if all research would be ended but Floor's, i should think it's ok. Very weird conclusion and doesn't make no sense at all.

[ayeaye]

Merry Christmas to you all!

I never got such messages during these holidays. But people have tried to discredit me before, then turned out to be wrong. This is like an experience of my life, this defending myself is what i used to do all my life.

But anyway, happy holidays to you all. And we will show that there is overunity one day, beyond doubt, the way that no one can no longer deny.

[Floor]

Here are some good explanations of how and why these devices work.

see attachment below

floor

[gyulasun]

Hi ayeaye,

How can you so simply say that? Magnetic permeability changes on different magnetic materials, and we don't even know what the magnetic permeability was on the magnets used in that experiment, also how strongly they were magnetized. 

If you did not understand what I wrote on this as an explanation in my previous mail then why do not you say that?  Your answer clearly indicates you can only mention generalities in an attempt to argue with me. 
It does not matter what the permeability of the magnetic materials had before these materials got magnetized and became permanent magnets. After the magnetization, the permeability falls down to near 1 i.e. to that of the air. Ceramic magnets have a permeability of 1.2 to 1.6 or so, Neo magnets have 1.05 to 1.2 or so, etc. If you place say a ceramic (i.e. ferrite) magnet into an air cored solenoid coil and monitor the self inductance of the coil with an L meter, you would find the inductance value would increase very little with respect to the air core case (I tested this many years ago, with different types of permanent magnets).
What does this test tell you on the magnetic permeabilty of permanent magnets? Shielding is out of question in this sense due to the near 1 magnetic permeabilty. I did not simply say just out of thin air that you were wrong in this respect. 

I didn't come to this forum because of my desire to subordinate to authorities, i came here for a very different reason. If one has a desire to subordinate to authorities, then there are much better places for that than this forum.

The only 'authority' on a technical forum should be replications of empirical results the forum members demonstrate. But you do not wish to fully replicate Floor's or Citfta's setups as they demonstrated, you simply misunderstand and criticize their setups. So what? 
You say Floor would not replicate your setup. What if he is already at a more advanced experience level with magnets than you and he simply thinks in his head that his setups are better than yours? I just speculate this as a possibility, do not take this to your heart... 

I wrote I am not against you, I simply pointed out your misinterpretations with their setups. It is unfortunate and it is your choice if you consider this situation as you are being a subordinate here, nobody implied that. Floor kindly asked you at least twice to start your own thread and do not discuss your own setup and research on the assymetry of magnetic fields in this thread. 

> the attraction was due to the slightly unbalanced attract - repel forces between the magnets

And they were very well balanced when moving the shield magnet out, you said it required very little force. Something doesn't add up there, or does? 

I do not see controversy: in Citfta's setup the magnetic balancing was not much precise (like for instance it was in Floor's setups) but with that small unbalance of the attract - repel forces the input force needed for moving the magnets was still much lower than the output force gained from the strong facing like poles. 

> Let me ask: what is your problem with "And then anything about magnets, motion, and measurement, will of course be about what Floor did." ?   If you do not wish to evalute Floor setup in practice, built as Floor did, then there is no comparison base between his and your research, hence no sense for worry.

So i shouldn't worry, if all research would be ended but Floor's, i should think it's ok. Very weird conclusion and doesn't make no sense at all. 

I wrote you should not worry about what Floor did in this thread if you do not want to evalute his setups in practice: 
1) it is his thread and readers here may or may not agree with his findings in the end and 
2) you have written wrong interpretations on his setups what he objected and asked you to start your own thread.   

But anyway, happy holidays to you all. And we will show that there is overunity one day, beyond doubt, the way that no one can no longer deny.

Amen! 

Gyula

[ayeaye]

It does not matter what the permeability of the magnetic materials had before these materials got magnetized and became permanent magnets. After the magnetization, the permeability falls down to near 1 i.e. to that of the air.

You try to make it look like that i meant something else than i said, that was wrong. Attack against strawman.

So you say the magnets are always magnetized up to the saturation. This is not always the case. I also have some weakly magnetized iron magnets, and they act as a shield, i tried it. So by you they couldn't, as you want to say that everything that gets magnetized, is saturated and can no more act as a shield. One cannot agree that this is always true.

But my argument was general, yes, i didn't exclude any other unknown ways of shielding, if there are any at all. I only said that because Floor did not explain at all how the shielding in his experiments happens, in spite that he was asked, then by Occam's razor it should be assumed that it was an ordinary shielding. But if there are any other ways of shielding, then also it is not known whether they act the same way as an ordinary shielding what concerns attraction to the shield, and then also likely these experiments provide no overunity.

> I do not see controversy: in Citfta's setup the magnetic balancing was not much precise (like for instance it was in Floor's setups) but with that small unbalance of the attract - repel forces the input force needed for moving the magnets was still much lower than the output force gained from the strong facing like poles.

It looks like that you don't understand what you say here. And no, i calculated that the input energy was much greater than the output energy, exactly because the energy of moving the shield magnet was too great.

> What if he is already at a more advanced experience level with magnets than you and he simply thinks in his head that his setups are better than yours?

This is exactly the way of thinking that shouldn't be in science. And this is exactly what causes the authority that can prevent others from doing research.

> I wrote I am not against you, I simply pointed out your misinterpretations with their setups.

No you didn't. And no, i cannot believe that you are not against me, you try to make it look like that i'm ignorant even when i didn't say anything ignorant. When one's aim is not finding the truth but something else, like authority, then when criticized, they feel like it is a situation of you or them, because when that is found, they are lost. So they see the only alternative to eliminate the opponent, trying for that to have as many people who support them as possible. And the best, also maintaining good relations with the one they try to attack, making them to agree with the attack against them. As you see you try to say that you are not against me.

But it is exactly that in the research, people shouldn't matter, but finding how it really is should matter. You are though talking much too much about me.

> it is his thread

No, this is a public forum and no one owns the threads. What can be talked in the thread is thus determined only by the topic. Like if Floor created a separate thread about his papers, like "Floor's papers on magnets", then sure i didn't talk there about anything else than his papers.

And yes i'm not against Floor talking about his work here, or anywhere, and if he does, i don't anyhow try to prevent it. Even if i don't agree with what he says, he has a right to say that.

> you have written wrong interpretations on his setups what he objected and asked you to start your own thread

I have not, and now you try to say that as you think that you succeeded to falsely discredit me, then this should take from me all my rights. That too is not true, even if i were wrong, this doesn't take from me all my rights.

> Amen!

Good that you agree with something, but what i said was not in the name of the Egyptian god.

But OK, this is what i propose. Try to measure overunity when disregarding friction. I think this is an achievable goal, and the goal i think there should be first.

This is not worth and should be disregarded, as Floor says. No, this is doing it wrong way around. First do this, so that we have a measured overunity, in spite useless, and then think how to go ahead. But then we at least know where the overunity is.

I found it is in the asymmetry (irregularity) of the magnetic field. Evidence like iron filings show that, and my experiment also likely shows that.

If there is also another way to get overunity, like Floor says, the better, but it should be measured first. And when measurements indeed show such overunity, then it should be found what it is caused by. But so far there is no evidence of the overunity that Floor suggests, and there is a question whether there is any. Floor should provide at least some evidence that there may be any overunity, either theoretically or by experiment, otherwise it is not worth considering. I don't reject all the other great work that Floor did, that all can be useful, but this forum is about overunity.