TD replications

[norman6538]

Floor I thank you so much for posting and sharing all of your experimentation and ideas. I have about 10 boxes of magnet or wheel stuff in my basement that I have worked on and I now have seen and made 4 permanent magnet devices that have more work out than work in. But unless there is about 300% extra I can't get them to self run. So here is the basic cycle.
1. set something where it will do work.
2. measure that work after it is done.
3. reset the device so it can repeat the cycle and measure that reset work required.

Then you are ready to repeat at step 1. So you have 2 work ins to measure and 1 work out. By tweaking I can reduce the work in of step 1 but that increases the work in of step 2. And to get this to work takes precision like a clock maker.

Right now I could show you a self running machine work in/work out wise if I am allowed to do the manual switching for each step. That is where I am stuck right now.
But to me the most discouraging part is when I show this to my closest friends I get "Dah" - no curiosity nor encouragement. So working like that takes a long time. My greatest encouragement has come from the work of Butch Lafonte and Floor. Thanks guys.

Norman

[Floor]

Norman6538
I personal messaged you.
regards
          floor

[Floor]

I won't / don't want to claim that these results are valid.  I was too distracted / over whelmed with stuff at the time these measurements were made....

A previous comment to ...
@Norman6538

.......................................  with changes and corrections (at 5/28/20) and an addendum, to all readers.

Specifically... with the magnet, shapes, types and orientations I use....
ceramic, 3/8 by 7/8 by 1 7/8 inches, wafer magnets, poles on the broad faces,
both poles presented at the edges.

RO is the rotating magnet
SL is the sliding magnet

0 degrees RO is 90 degrees off from parallel to SL 

Other wise I will refer      not to degrees      but to   units of travel distance by the weight bottle,
whether RO  or SL.

When RO is at 0 deg. to SL ....  this what I generally would call neutral, in terms of either attracting or repelling force against the sliding motion of SL.

Because of magnetic domain representations, within the RO and SL magnets    both     there is an attraction of SL TOWARD RO.  Its is always there in magnet interactions and it effects the total amount of either attracting or repelling force present.  It is especially strong when the magnet are very near to one another. 

We normally don't know it's there because it is concealed within the larger forces of either attractions or repulsions that occur between magnets.   

When RO is at 0 degrees to SL  there is an overall neutralization of attracting and repelling forces upon SL (only in the sliding direction)..... but not upon RO in its ROtating direction.

Forces which WOULD cause SL  to rotate are present (Newton's laws still apply) but the sliding track does not allow that to happen to SL  (no SL motion = no energy spent upon SL). 

                   Along the sliding direction forces are equal and opposite / canceling. 
EXCEPT for the attracting force present due to the domain flipping.  Call it SP6538..

On my test bench, as set up,  when SL is at 5 /units of distance from RO   and   RO is at 13 deg.....

STICK SPOT 6538 will lift 130 grams on RO. as it causes  both the rotation of RO from 13 deg. to 0 deg. and.....  it will simultaneously cause the sliding of SL from 5 units of distance to 0 units of distance, without any input / weight on the SL unit.  Then it becomes SP6538 as you pull SL away from
RO.

SP6538 can be either an input or an output.  This depends our call.  IF.....

130 grams hangs upon the RO pulley while RO is at 18 deg. and SL is at 22 units of distance (22 deg. on the SL scale)... it takes an input on SL of 307 units of work, to bring SL to 0 units of distance.  This is accomplished by hanging a series of weights on the SL pulley.  Lighter and lighter weights as SL gets closer to RO.  At 5 units of distance (5 deg. SL scale) no weight is needed on the SL pulley.

We just did the lifting 130 grams times 18 deg. RO (18 units of distance times 130 grams = 2340
units of work) by applying 307 units of work on the SL.  But its no OU unless we can get every thing  back to the starting points. 

Both RO  and SL  are at zero....   RO  is at a right angle to SL (0 deg. RO).  SP6538 is in our face.
How many work units to pull SL  from 0 deg. back to 30 deg. (22  not 30) while RO is at 0 deg RO ?
Answer...  around 404 units of work.

so.. that's 307 + 404 = 711... but there remains one other measurement to do.

Because... when the RO weight falls from 0 to 18 deg. while SL is at 22 units of distance from RO...
RO is still under some influence from the SL magnetic force..   

Therefore we must measure the work needed to rotate RO from 0 deg. to 18 deg. RO, while NO WEIGHT hangs upon the RO pulley and SL remains distant at 22 units of distance from RO.   This is equal to 1845 units of work.

307 SL input  30 (22 not 30) to 0 deg.  SL
404 SL return input 0 to 30 (22 not 30) deg SL (RO is at 0 deg.)
1845 RO pull down input (no 130 grams)
2556 total input

130 grams times 18 units of distance = 2340

2556 - 2340 = 216 Under Unity.... oh man bummer ... right ?

If we look at it as ...

just one input ... 130 grams times 18 deg. RO = 2340   and....
three separate outputs totaling to 2556 unit of work.... then its
216 Over Unity.  yep...

But that's not all folks.....  one can change every thing up and get 3 inputs that amount to less than the
one single output instead.

@ All readers      addendum  from the present time (5/28/20)..

A couple of  months ago / or more, I stood over the T.D. unit and pulled measurement sets until I was pretty well bleary eyed.  A several weeks long stint !  Hours long measurement  /  writing down data sets then contemplation / next measurements sets, so on.  One data set blending into the next.  Some times loosing track of which data sets I was working on !

Except as contributing to the over view, no data from any prior measurement set is valid for the next measurement set, once a single element / condition is changed.

At points, the goal was simply to get a grasp / acquire, a general comprehension of / over view of,  how one change effects the other three aspects, and damn the precision, at least for the present. 

Every change in set up effects the other three aspects.  22 units of travel distance as the maximum on SL and with 115 grams on RO, and RO hangs at 40 deg. RO....  Then 30 units of travel distance as the maximum on SL (rather than 22 deg) and with 115 grams on RO, and RO then hangs lower when SL is at the max distance.  SL work input radically changes, SL return stroke work is increased.  The ratio of  the RO output to the work needed to pull down RO from 90 degrees when no 115 grams of weight
hangs upon RO and SL is most distal from RO (RO return) is changed. 

So on, and then when working / looking at the changes in SL and RO behaviors when SL is near to RO , wow / ha ha ha !

I gained / regained specific insights / understandings,  and as before (3years ago), I don't see any reason why the Twist Drive, should result in O.U. .   I'll just say, my T.D. tests, are inconclusive.

I would rather work with the magnetic shielding / shunting any way.  Those interactions / results make sense to me / are kick ass. 

@   https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/msg494854/#msg494854

@ All readers
   that's all for now
    thanks for the feed backs / confirmations / reality checks
        best wishes
             floor

[norman6538]

Floor first I want to thank you for all that you have done and shared. You certainly have shown lots of options. And moving to units in vs units out makes it so simple and easy to comprehend. My devices have been about 200% and more OU but I have found that to do the mechanical switching from setting to lifting to resetting requires more than maybe 200%. I have a bag of tricks that help a lot but as I said before my clockmaking skills are poor and have not been able to make it self run but I do expect to see that in a year or so. I work in spurts and this spurt ran dry a month ago.

Norman

[Floor]

@Norman

Hey, the inspiration, discoveries and enjoyment have got to be there or its just not worth it, and the work, then suffers any way.

aside..

ONE... of the reasons I made a jump from the magnetic force shielding / shunting,  to the topic of the Twist Drive, was to break up the continuity of the Magnets motion and measurement topic. 

Sometimes this can shake the dogs / trolls off thier scent trail.  My appologies that this allso breaks up the continuity for everyone else as well.

  untill next
    peace out
       floor